Peugeot 504 Cab with Oil/Petrol running/over flowing from clutch bell house area

[goodgriefmike]

Hi Everyone, I have the start of a conundrum which I'd love any thoughts and insight into please. Car: 1972 504 Cabriolet, Manual 4 speed, with the 2.0L Kugelfischer fuel injection (so anyone familiar with Ti will know the configuration..

1. Situation: Car running perfectly, I have just had it shipped Mel to Syd, and upon arrival in Sydney, there was a huge pool of oil under the car, and no oil registering on the dip stick (see the pictures) While in the car yard, I put about 1.5 litres of oil into the engine (just to test really) and immediately a flow of liquid came from the inspection hole in the bottom of the clutch bell housing area. That liquid was mostly petrol ?!! Having seen the mess, the car is now on its final journey to my garage.
2. Questions: it is not the oil sump plug If the car has been man handled by a fork lift truck (quite likely imo as that was how all the cars being handled appeared to be moved about) has that 'bent, cracked, something?
3. Another thought? The key was left in the ignition, and battery flat, is it possible that someone left the ignition 'on' and the lift pump near the fuel tank have stayed running... could that have pushed fuel into the engine area... maybe putting petrol via the inlet manifold, into the engine via an open valve? such that petrol has filled the whole sump and overflowed ... somehow, into the clutch area??
4. Any thoughts are appreciated as I am in investigation mode... clearly r's mike
5. (sorry about the formatting)

 

[Armidillo]

I can't answer the question, but I think you have good cause to be more than a little annoyed - hard to avoid the conclusion that the problems have been caused by the loading/unloading procedure.

If there dump has filled with fuel, then presumably the dipstick would not come out dry, but overfull and wet with something soon to 2-stroke fuel?

Anyway, best of luck - I think you should be making a claim against shipping company.

Cheers
Alec

 

[julian c b]

I had a similar problem on o 404 with 504 ti motor that was left overnight with ignition on leaving a large amount of petrol on the ground. I drained the sump and refilled with oil and everything was good after that. Good luck

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

These engines don't have a rear main seal, just a "slinger" which directs oil back in to the sump. If the injection pump was leaking fuel into the sump it would flow out the back of the engine easily.

 

[driven]

Drain sump, refill and then does it start?

 

[BIGRR]

Was the car transported with the nose way up higher than the rear? Oil would have leaked out as Graham Wallis said, and fuel may have entered the engine via the atomiser if the truckie trying to start the car whilst flooded.


I would go with the driven suggestion.


Good Luck

 

[goodgriefmike]

I had a similar problem on o 404 with 504 ti motor that was left overnight with ignition on leaving a large amount of petrol on the ground. I drained the sump and refilled with oil and everything was good after that. Good luck

Hi Julian, thanks for this, I have raised the issue with the shipping company , I'll be keeping you guys updated , mike

 

[goodgriefmike]

Was the car transported with the nose way up higher than the rear? Oil would have leaked out as Graham Wallis said, and fuel may have entered the engine via the atomiser if the truckie trying to start the car whilst flooded.


I would go with the driven suggestion.


Good Luck

Hi Bigrr, (and Graham) on the first leg of the shipping, it was towed front wheels high (ie rear wheels on the road) to the main depot, (I'm guessing 30km or so) After that I have no idea.

I'm coming to the thought that the ignition has been left on (probably at the Sydney depot) where the car stood for a couple of weeks .
When I get a response from the shipping company, that will inform on what we do next . But I'll keep you guys posted on the outcome and what the cause transpires to be. r's mike

 

[Mike Tippett]

The pistons within the injection pump hydraulic head are lubricated by engine oil under pressure. If the fuel system is pressurized for a long period of time without the oil pressure pushing against it, I imagine what could happen is the fuel could very slowly leak back through the lapped bores of the cylinder barrels, into the oil feed line and back to the sump. As I say, they are lapped so it seems to me there would have to be a VERY long time when the fuel pump is running to result in a significant volume making its way back to the sump.

 

[julian c b]

Maybe you should have driven it from Melbourne to Sydney and avoided this.

 

[goodgriefmike]

With hindsight eh? Although I also had other cars to bring up and have made a couple of trips, ( thought this would be best...)

 

[luthier]

My experience with the Kugelfischer system involved fuel running past the Kugel pump into the sump. From having a full tank of gas to empty in about 10K's. Then at home I found the sump totally full of petrol.
When I discovered this I realized that the electric Bosch Fuel pump was putting out way too much pressure and solved that by fitting a pressure restricter which could be adjusted. This went into a T with one side to the Kugel and the other side back to the tank. It worked well. The correct amount of pressure is about 24psi whereas the Bosch was putting out about 60psi. It is possible to get the proper electric pump but they are a special item that you have to order from Europe and very expensive. Bosch electric pumps are easily available and this is an easy solution.
I would say if you have the wrong pressure pump then the ignition being left on would certainly push fuel into the sump and then as they said being so thin it would run straight out of either end of the motor.
But I would suggest it indicates a problem with the setup of the car as described.

 

[luthier]

My experience with the Kugelfischer system involved fuel running past the Kugel pump into the sump. From having a full tank of gas to empty in about 10K's. Then at home I found the sump totally full of petrol.
When I discovered this I realized that the electric Bosch Fuel pump was putting out way too much pressure and solved that by fitting a pressure restricter which could be adjusted. This went into a T with one side to the Kugel and the other side back to the tank. It worked well. The correct amount of pressure is about 24psi whereas the Bosch was putting out about 60psi. It is possible to get the proper electric pump but they are a special item that you have to order from Europe and very expensive. Bosch electric pumps are easily available and this is an easy solution.
I would say if you have the wrong pressure pump then the ignition being left on would certainly push fuel into the sump and then as they said being so thin it would run straight out of either end of the motor.
But I would suggest it indicates a problem with the setup of the car as described.

 

[Mike Tippett]

That's a very good point, the OE electric lift pump has lower pressure than that. 60 PSI would even push back against the oil pressure and probably leak into the sump when the engine's idling. And the lapped pistons and barrels will wear really fast because they won't be lubricated if the fuel's pushing back into the sump.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

My experience with the Kugelfischer system involved fuel running past the Kugel pump into the sump. From having a full tank of gas to empty in about 10K's. Then at home I found the sump totally full of petrol.
When I discovered this I realized that the electric Bosch Fuel pump was putting out way too much pressure and solved that by fitting a pressure restricter which could be adjusted. This went into a T with one side to the Kugel and the other side back to the tank. It worked well. The correct amount of pressure is about 24psi whereas the Bosch was putting out about 60psi. It is possible to get the proper electric pump but they are a special item that you have to order from Europe and very expensive. Bosch electric pumps are easily available and this is an easy solution.
I would say if you have the wrong pressure pump then the ignition being left on would certainly push fuel into the sump and then as they said being so thin it would run straight out of either end of the motor.
But I would suggest it indicates a problem with the setup of the car as described.

You can simply run the Bosch pump into the input of the Kugel pump, the Kugel pump will then split the pressure into what is required. May have been removed and thrown out though?

 

[julian c b]

I have a pump from a VL commodore feeding the injection pump on my 504 cab. More pressure than the original but ive had no problems after several years.

 

[goodgriefmike]

My experience with the Kugelfischer system involved fuel running past the Kugel pump into the sump. From having a full tank of gas to empty in about 10K's. Then at home I found the sump totally full of petrol.
When I discovered this I realized that the electric Bosch Fuel pump was putting out way too much pressure and solved that by fitting a pressure restricter which could be adjusted. This went into a T with one side to the Kugel and the other side back to the tank. It worked well. The correct amount of pressure is about 24psi whereas the Bosch was putting out about 60psi. It is possible to get the proper electric pump but they are a special item that you have to order from Europe and very expensive. Bosch electric pumps are easily available and this is an easy solution.
I would say if you have the wrong pressure pump then the ignition being left on would certainly push fuel into the sump and then as they said being so thin it would run straight out of either end of the motor.
But I would suggest it indicates a problem with the setup of the car as described.

Its the original lift pump (I'm luck enough to have three of them from the past) But, the point you gentlemen are making is of more and more sense.

Even though it is the original pump (low pressure) given enough time with the ignition switch left one (eg a couple of weeks) is it possible /likely that fuel has been forced to the engine area and done as described?

Basically, I suspect the car was quickly moved within the receiving yard, parked up, (maybe then moved further out of the way, as it has to be stored) and a busy individual just leaves the key in the ignition in an 'on' position, resulting in buckets of oil/petrol falling onto the yard concrete?

(I came to inspect the car after about it had arrived about two weeks earlier, and the key was still in the ignition )

NEXT question is what next?
Drain sump completely
Refill oil
Run a short while
Drain oil again?
Refill and it should be ok?

any thoughts much appreciated , mike

 

[angru]

I rekin if the pump can be left on with the motor not running, it would be a really good idea to fit a tachometric relay. (I know, not the issue you have now, but a good idea anyway).

 

[luthier]

I would say just drain the oil and refill. You have already cleaned out the sump in the best way possible. New oil filter and you should be right to go.
Any remnant fuel will evaporate as it runs. But of course keep an eye on the oil level and if it starts to increase and look really lovely and clear you have fuel in there and a problem .
I should also tell you that I took mine for a drive with a trailer and a motorbike on the back on a big trip from the Hunter Valley to SA. During that trip I used E10 and I got massive valve recession , so much that when I finally made it home after spending an obscene amount on fuel and having a backfiring gutless piece of vomit , I ripped off the stupid Kugelfischer head, threw it in the garbage and fitted a carby head which then worked very nicely.
Just saying, they can suffer from valve seat collapse if original, as they weren't meant for modern crap fuel. I might be inclined to have hardened seats if you ever take off the head. Otherwise be religious with valve saver additive and always fill with 98 octane or 95 at the very least.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Doesn't matter what fuel, E10, 98, they all are lead free so can cause recession. More chance of this happening if the car is worked hard over a long distance and particulary if the head has had the valves reseated, as this removes any work hardening which develops over time. Just needs hardened exhaust seats to be fitted, easy and not too expensive.