Peugeot 308 timing chains

pugnut1

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I was talking to southern Tasmania's favorite mechanic a few days ago, and he mentioned that these cars are experiencing timing chains snapping at around 70,000 km. Expensive job to fix but cheap job if you replace before they snap (sub ($400-$500).
This applies to petrol cars and necessary the GTI.
Is this the experience of other drivers? Forewarned is Forearmed!
 
You are referring to the EP6 (natural) and EP6DT (turbo) engines in a range of cars. This is the number one weakness, and can be disastrous. I listed the common faults recently in another thread, but detection of timing chain rattle, when cold, will warn you. Mini owners share this, the engine is basically a BMW head on a PSA type block.

Obviously not everyone scores this booby prize, but too many do. I have one that got to 50,000 km before it rattled and was replaced. I am told that there have been design changes to improve the components.
 
I don't own a 308, so my interest is only general. Are the new timing chains of better quality and longer lasting ?
 
It's very rubbery but I got the idea from the mechanic. It sounds like about 3 hours work
 
Chain stretch (and subsequent noise from the plastic guide rails) and timing issues are the number one complaint.

Chains snapping I haven't heard of. Chains do snap on mistreated 1.6 HDi engines though.

I don't think it's a particularly difficult job (it's replaced as a set) but you do need the correct setting tools.

It's not a case of pins (or drill bits), but some specific lumps of metal to align the camshafts.
 
I can comment on the difficulty of replacing the timing chain having recently gone through the experience. In August 2018 I bought a 2013 model Citroen DS5 with the turbo petrol THP155 engine. It had 70,000 km on it and as a precaution I had the inlet valves walnut blasted by a Mini garage in Ringwood before bringing it back to Tas. They said it needed it, and it did look very clogged up. Their quote for a Mini was $550 but the more difficult access with the Citroen brought the total cost up to $800 including a new camshaft cover gasket set. It did seem a little more responsive but I don't drive it very hard so it's hard to tell how much it improved things. The car came with a 3 month warranty and a week after that expired I had a rattle at start up. The car had been well maintained but there was a note in the service records to check the timing chain tensioner at 40k km. At 69k the high pressure fuel pump and fuel rail had been replaced.
I bought a $62 timing kit on eBay (I do note the reservations held about cheap kits) and relied on a Peugeot 308 Haynes workshop manual to do the job. I also had to make up a special tool to hold the flywheel- didn't need to remove the starter motor as there was a convenient part of the flywheel exposed. I suspect a lot of people use the crankshaft locking pin but the manual warns you against this. The test gauge that came with the kit showed that the wear measurement was 69mm, 1 mm greater than the maximum of 68 allowed. The top plastic chain guide was fine, but the small upward pointing finger on the exhaust side of the timing chain guide assembly had been broken off, and there were cracks where it swivelled on the other guide arm. The bits were in the oil pump inlet screen. I replaced the guides (the new one did not have the fingers), crankshaft sprocket, chain and tensioner. The last item was identical to the one that was in the car- a round hole drilled in the cap. There was no indication in the Haynes manual that any camshaft or crankshaft bolts needed to be replaced, but I did so anyway given the hype on the internet. There was also no mention of aligning the 4 oil holes in the inlet camshaft VANOS unit with the corresponding holes in the end of the camshaft. I did note that the indented arrow head on the periphery of the VANOS unit was at about 12 o'clock when the timing was set with the crankshaft locking tool. I could see no way of checking this afterwards. It took me three attempts at advancing the inlet camshaft timing to get the timing position correct - as indicated by the special tool. Hence the sprocket bolt was undone and re-tightened three times. Heeding the warnings about removing all traces of oil from the adjoining faces of the sprockets and respective shafts, it did not occur to me to try to clean the rear face of the crankshaft oil pump sprocket or the crankshaft face behind it when installing the new crankshaft timing sprocket in front of them. So far the car has run ok but with no keyways to align any of the sprockets it is a concern. I have tried buying a pdf workshop manual for the DS5 but the one I got did not include the petrol engine. I also tried a product that covered all Citroen models but it required that my PC install it as a Virtual machine, something I was not capable of doing. It would be very useful to find comprehensive instructions on doing this quite critical job.
 
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Couple of things it is fine to use the crank pin to lock while undoing you definitely need to replace cam and crank bolts every time. The lining up of the intake pulley isn’t a issue what is though is making sure the that the unit is locked before removing but if you turned it over and rechecked the timing it should be fine did you have torque specs to do it up with


Garage C5 X7 3008 XTE
Gone but not forgotten 206 GTI 180 306 XR SED 405 MI16 x2 xzara VTS 406 SV 206 XT Berlingo 2011 (best car ever) 306 HDI 307 XSE HDI touring
Fix it right the first time
 
While I criticise the Haynes manual it did have a good description of the sequence involved and full torque specs. What I meant to do but forgot was to measure the length of the old crankshaft and camshaft bolts to see if they had stretched at all compared with the new ones, which would have been interesting. I should have mentioned that the whole job cost $597 which included the cam and crankshaft locking kit and a 27mm spanner to hold the camshafts. I had seen mention that it was a 10 hour job but it would have taken me much longer than that on the DS5. Having a helper to turn the engine while you tried to find the hole in the flywheel would have saved some time!
 
It still staggers me that PSA/BMW couldn't get a basic timing chain design right after so many decades of these things being essentially bullet proof on many engines. Not that they are alone if you go back to Triumph Stags and one of the Citroen SM chains, and no doubt others. Amazing.

I'm presuming generation change in the design department and heavy budget constraints. Does anyone know how this stuff-up actually happened? Just curious.

Hope this isn't too far off-topic. I'm in awe of someone tackling it at home, the consequences of error being what they are. Well done!!
 
The nasty part of the job to me if you aren't a workshop, is making the dummy tensioner. The need for special tools to retain the camshafts is also a pity.

The PSA technical blurbs when this engine was designed are focussed on lightness both of moving parts and total mass, and small size. So they used a single internal chain about the size of a bicycle chain, rather than one of the heavy double chains of yesteryear's engines. It turned out that the original chains stretched and lost timing.

Interestingly the new three pot EB series has an internal wet belt.
 
There isn’t many engines out there that don’t have chain problems not a psa specific problem


Garage C5 X7 3008 XTE
Gone but not forgotten 206 GTI 180 306 XR SED 405 MI16 x2 xzara VTS 406 SV 206 XT Berlingo 2011 (best car ever) 306 HDI 307 XSE HDI touring
Fix it right the first time
 
As far as I know the timing chains (single row) in my PRV V6 Citroen are the original 1994 issue. So it is possible to make chains and tensioners that last a very long time without intervention. Even then a bit of tinkling chain noise is more character than serious fault in quite a few older engines, admittedly lower output though.

In hindsight, it might have been better to specify a double row chain in the EP engines. Any savings made on the chain setup must have been outweighed by warranty repairs etc. many times over. At least PSA-EP owners aren't being asked to pay US$500+ for each VVT sprocket as is the case for Mini/BMW owners if you have a look at PelicanParts.com and similar vendors.
 
No the cam shafts just wear away and the block rots if it’s got wheels It will give you problems


Garage C5 X7 3008 XTE
Gone but not forgotten 206 GTI 180 306 XR SED 405 MI16 x2 xzara VTS 406 SV 206 XT Berlingo 2011 (best car ever) 306 HDI 307 XSE HDI touring
Fix it right the first time
 
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