My R12 POS Arrived!

Follow what Thanos says in Post #34. I just worry you are getting a bit too far ahead of yourself, shelling out virtually the value of the car on sway bars of unknown (apart from size) quantity. Whilst they may suit a 12G, I'd say they are way too much for basically a stock engine 12 (the 1300 motor weighs less than the 1565cc motor). I found even with a 17TL front bar, 17TL/12 Wagon rear bar and 175/70 x 13 tyres on 5.5" 17TS rims it still understeered more than desired. Reverting back to the stock 12 front bar made things a bit more neutral and adjustable.

My thoughts would be to get it through a roadworthy and registered first, then the 15/17 front/rear brakes, wheels as suggested by COL above, play with the stock 15/17 sway bars, enter it in a few events to see how the car feels to you. Then decide where you want to go from there. Bigger motor, cubic dollar spend etc etc.......
 
Anti-roll bars:

Stock Renault 12 sedan manual - Front 17mm, Rear 14mm
Stock Renault 12 wagon & 12 Auto - Front 17mm, Rear 16mm

Stock 15TS/17TL (most)- Front 21mm, Rear 16mm (early) , 20mm (late)

Stock 17TS (R1317) - Front 21mm, Rear 20mm

Stock 17 Gordini & 12 Gordini - Front 24mm, Rear 24.5mm

Also note, don't take the 12 front springs too lightly. Uncoiled, they measure circa one metre in length, and if the incorrect tools are used when being worked on, they can be very dangerous.
 
Bowie, nolathane suspension bushes are available off the shelf from Super Pro (and I suspect others). I just did all of mine (except for the rear arms, because I am not sure it needs those). I even found a bush that with a light skim fit the tops of the front dampers. The only rubbers I kept original (out of laziness and can't be ****ed factor) are the front caster bar bushes. I am checking out the shelves when I find myself near the shops though.
 
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Cheers all. :)

Look yes I'm running around way ahead of myself, But the way I figure it. Goridni has done all the hard work for us as far as something to aim for. I'm just currently researching the required contacts so I can be organized for when I want to hit go on things. I work in operations and it's the curse of the job really. At work I'm stuck thinking 12-24m ahead most of the time, why should my Renault 12 plans be any different :p

No I'm not about to throw 24mm bars into a unknown 12 with stock dampeners and springs,
Yes It will be going to uncles Dave's for club rego,
Yes I will get my finger out and over to some events, driving a slow car fast was the dam point in all this.
Yes there probably honestly is more car in a clapped out 12 then I would no what to do with on a circuit / at an event.
Yes I'm a little to excited and just need to calm down :p

I took it out to the Ballet tonight, (don't worry I had a permit) and my partner hardly complained. That pretty much means she likes it I think.
 
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Be careful with wheels and tires. I would stay with 13's and use a nice low profile track day tire; this would be like having a short diff.
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fair enough but that would probably be 185/60 or 185/55 and the minimum rim width for those is 5"

so new, or modified, wheels then.

cheers! Peter
 
fair enough but that would probably be 185/60 or 185/55 and the minimum rim width for those is 5"

so new, or modified, wheels then.

cheers! Peter

I was taking that for granted, 185/55/13 or 185/60/13 track day tires need a 5.5 inch rim. A little more offset would be good also, a wider track is always helpful.
 
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fair enough but that would probably be 185/60 or 185/55 and the minimum rim width for those is 5"

so new, or modified, wheels then.

cheers! Peter

R18 wheels will give you 5" wide and will most likely be the cheapest way to go, unless you come across someone on here selling a set of old Cosmic or Dunlop alloys.
 
Cheers all. :)

Look yes I'm running around way ahead of myself, But the way I figure it. Goridni has done all the hard work for us as far as something to aim for. I'm just currently researching the required contacts so I can be organized for when I want to hit go on things. I work in operations and it's the curse of the job really. At work I'm stuck thinking 12-24m ahead most of the time, why should my Renault 12 plans be any different :p

No I'm not about to throw 24mm bars into a unknown 12 with stock dampeners and springs,
Yes It will be going to uncles Dave's for club rego,
Yes I will get my finger out and over to some events, driving a slow car fast was the dam point in all this.
Yes there probably honestly is more car in a clapped out 12 then I would no what to do with on a circuit / at an event.
Yes I'm a little to excited and just need to calm down :p

I took it out to the Ballet tonight, (don't worry I had a permit) and my partner hardly complained. That pretty much means she likes it I think.

If you want to do grass roots motor sport in the car as it is, motorkhanas are a good place to start and a standard R12 is a great car for this.

My only tip here is make sure the hand brake works well so that you can steer it around a tight course on the rear wheels.
 
If you want to do grass roots motor sport in the car as it is, motorkhanas are a good place to start and a standard R12 is a great car for this.

My only tip here is make sure the hand brake works well so that you can steer it around a tight course on the rear wheels.

Just a thought on this point. Being an early 12, it will likely still have the under dash handbrake, if you require a new pawl so it actually stays on let us know. Anyway, to make it more suited to motorkhanas, it'll be a good opportunity to install a hydraulic handbrake between the seats, at the same time as a 15/17 brake upgrade. Keeping the underdash handbrake will make it a bit more legal, in not having to work out how to fit the hydraulic handbrake around the later 12 type floor handbrake.
 
Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
???

A good way to lessen understeer is to have relatively more of the roll stiffness (& thus weight transfer & thus grip degradation) at the rear. So a relatively stiffer rear bar compared to the front will lessen understeer & a relatively stiffer front bar will increase understeer. Playing with roll stiffeness differences via changes in spring, sway bar & damper rating in compression 'phase are major ways of adjusting handling balance.

I always wondered with the R17 TL bars if the rear was a greater thickness increase than the front one by reference to an R12 or if the balance was the same.

cheers! Peter


That's why I said you don't want a huge difference between the front and the rear sway bars.

Yes, all is now clear. (I was, you see, thinking of having a thicker bar at the rear; so . . . .)

cheers! Peter
 
My opinion is to overhaul all the bushings, tie rod ends etc, double the spring rates front and rear, use 17 mm ARB front and 20 mm rear. Yes, I know, it's a big difference! But even the 12G is known for terminal understeer so you either have to lower the front or use a smaller front ARB. My first choice would be 18 mm, but 17 mm is now on, so buy only a 20 mm rear ARB off an R17 from the wreckers and sink the $500 on other upgrades like springs and shocks. Look up the standard spring rates, double them and ask Kmac to make the springs from you. Let me know if you need help calculating spring heights.
 
Many thanks Thanos, Yes I'm sure to keep you all informed with all the boring details. :p
 
Have a look a Paul's (G4ME) R17G and copy that. Springs will be different obviously because of different weights but that car is so well set up it amazes me. It gets less wheel spin off the line than most of the rear drive cars in it's class and the way it turns in without any understeer is very impressive.
 

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Have a look a Paul's (G4ME) R17G and copy that. Springs will be different obviously because of different weights but that car is so well set up it amazes me. It gets less wheel spin off the line than most of the rear drive cars in it's class and the way it turns in without any understeer is very impressive.

Lots of negative camber on the front would help the turn in a lot.
 
Lots of negative camber on the front would help the turn in a lot.

And a lower front end. It looks like 2.5 degrees negative camber, 20 mm lower. Add around -1 mm tow (front end is 1 mm "open" ) and you have the cure for understeer. But I am a bit surprised to see this car on gravel, it does not seem to have the suspension travel for it.
 
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