My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

[bleudanube]

...this thread has all the hallmarks of a resto thread!

Bloody oath it does! And that’s a good thing :banana:

i could not go through a full restoration only to end up with a diarrhoea coloured car, worse even: top it off with the original similoid rio vinyl seat covers.... yikes!

I have a plan and a colour scheme in mind. Suspense...

 

[gerrypro]

Gerry, it does have a DW on the label. Couldn’t work it out as it doesn’t seem to exist in the books... what does it stand for?

View attachment 114056

My 1964-5 DS19 M Pallas that is now in the possession of Middlemoon' had this type of engine. As Roger Wilkinson said it was fitted to upmarket DS and Safari models. I do not know what the 'DW' prefix signifies. All I know is that it had the higher compression pistons' an internal ported DS head with dual throat a weber carburettor instead of the 34 PBIC Solex and was fitted with the harmonic balancer. The gearbox also was modified to provide a synchro on first gear IIRC.

 

[fritzelhund]

Well that explains it..not rare on a DS engine but they did not exist on the downmarket ID versions...which is what most Australians would have been exposed to.

Now for a rant. I have long contended that driving an air con compressor via a flimsy pressed metal pulley ( held together by rivets ) driven by a chain at the other end of the camshaft was inadequate. I think I replaced three in period because of the sudden clutching loads of the reciprocating compressor design.This harmonic balancer would have been a better power output source..all it would need was a belt and a supported jackshaft ( I imagine parallel to the tappet cover and above the exhaust manifold ) that would have been superior. Alas, the improved 5 bearing motors were also left without a viable power take off point other than the nose of the camshaft. IIRC Injection 21s WERE equipped with a harmonic balancer .. but they were invented and deleted as well.

 

[robmac]

The first thing to do it get rid of the (York?) recipro compressor.

And fit a nice efficient swash plate compressor with a "shock absorber" built into the clutch.

After that I would suggest you drive problems will be solved and the aircon will work better.

 

[fritzelhund]

The first thing to do it get rid of the (York?) recipro compressor.

And fit a nice efficient swash plate compressor with a "shock absorber" built into the clutch.

After that I would suggest you drive problems will be solved and the aircon will work better.

Please note .. I used the phrase "in period" ..meaning back when these cars were 'commonplace" and daily drivers .. not the collectors pieces of today. I have to agree with the idea of ditching the piston compressor, but that is the way it used to be done. Even SMs still appear with the reciprocating compressors. CXs also suffered the same problem. My comment was about the potential use of a power take off point at the REAR of the engine, leaving the light load stuff like alternator, HP pump and water pump for the lightweight pulley at the front.
The pulley in the form of the harmonic balancer at the rear was ALREADY there and IN production.

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

DW was the prefix used for parts specific to DS19 models with manual transmission.

D for the first version of DS19 parts
DS for the second version of DS19 parts
DW for DS19 with manual transmission
DF for ID19 parts
After that my memory fails me and I would have to look it up.

From memory still, for 1963 the ID19 received a gearbox with synchro in first, and the DS19M also received it. I would have to look up whether there was a DW and a DF version, probably not. For whatever reason, the DS19 BVH retained the gearbox with no synchro in first.

Roger

 

[bleudanube]

Thanks Roger, now I know what DW stands for - looks like the engine is correct for the car. Nice to know.

Well, a long weekend is certainly handy to make progress on restorations: after removing the engine last weekend, it was time to remove all the remaining front suspension parts, dash parts and work my way back into the simpler, less greasy areas. I removed about half a bucket full of leaves, sand and other detritus from all the nooks of the engine bay.




The hardest part I found to remove was the anti roll bar.... what an awkward design: lying under the car to try and remove the height corrector clamp (why doesn’t that clamp have a normal bolt, rather than this fully flat sided one... just hard to grab hold of). No idea how this will all go back together an get it adjusted when I get to it. Seems complex...

but, all done and dusted. Suspension out, hydraulic lines disconnected and all removed (that will be another great puzzle to put that all back into its place. Spaghetti at its best...)

there is a fair amount of rust in the outer sills and the front floor. The floor has been patched up pretty poorly over the years, there are a number of patches and holes. It will be a fair amount of work, but that’s ok. Some of the door seal holders are also quite thin.




question: on the rear floor, the original anti-drumming mat (or whatever the name for this mat is) is in good shape - should I leave it in place, or rather remove it (how? Chisel, heat gun?) to ensure there is no rust underneath...? Then replace it with dyna mat?

besides a couple of thin patches in the seal holders, the rear quarters seem ok.


As I am getting closer to starting work on the chassis, I am contemplating buying a rotisserie. Or would anyone on Aussie frogs have one (preferably Victoria) they don’t need for a few months? Does anyone have experience with Citroen chassis on a rotisserie? Where are the best attachment points?

alternatively I am thinking to buy one and then sell it again... has anyone done that before?

Sven

 

[mnm]

 

[mnm]

Obviously you’re far from making a colour choice but I recalled this pic I posted on the appreciation thread some time ago... albeit a first nose.

 

[fritzelhund]

Obviously you’re far from making a colour choice but I recalled this pic I posted on the appreciation thread some time ago... albeit a first nose.

First nose but with late 15 inch wheels judging by the DSpecial hubcaps.

 

[bleudanube]

Hmmmm, not bad, quite like it. What’s the colour code?

 

[mnm]

It looks like Bleu Lagune... AC 639

 

[bleudanube]

DONE! Besides getting the obstreperous rear arms out, the whole chassis has been stripped, all parts removed, photos taken and catalogued. The axles may need some more serious pressure via a jack or enerpak... they seem to be seized into the chassis pretty solidly - next weekend’s job...





The tank well is in good shape, worst areas for rust are: front left sill/jacking point, front footwell floor and kick panels, right hand outer sill, rear window frames are both a bit chewed, as are parts of the roof rail, door seal holders are chewed on the bottom and top...





As always, removal is the easy part, only wrestling the RH return & fuel line snake with all its hidden fixings out of the sill and getting the four LH hydraulic lines out was tricky (thanks Mark for advising to just bend the lines at the front to enable sliding the bundle out). Worked a treat! The wiring loom has been botched to add a non genuine tow bar, which also mean to that someone chopped a recess into the SS rear fender. Broken off a few rusty bolts and a couple of the cage nuts seem to be spinning inside the rear tailgate and frame - and no way to access them... any ideas? Open up the enclosed box sections?






As I am still new to Melbourne and don’t have any contacts for restoration suppliers, may I ask for some help. Has anyone got any recommendations for the following (preferably in SE Melbourne)

Electroplating: silver and gold zinc for nuts, bolts, etc

Chroming: not sure I need it yet, just in case...

Paint stripping of the chassis and panels: blasting won’t get rid of the internal rust in sills and Hilles, so I want to try tank stripping. Does anyone have any experience with that? Leaching issues and the like?

Powder coating: any good value shop?

Sandblasting/Soda blasting?

Engine parts overhauling: cylinder head, machining and the like?

Gearbox overhaul: not sure I need it yet, just in case

Upholstery: who does a good job, is fair value?

Appreciate any advice and help

Sven

 

[Budge]

Great progress Sven. Rebuild it quickly before the memory of how everything fits together fades........

 

[badabec]

Hello, how about pyrolysis (using an oven to burn the paint off) for the chassis?
I'm also restoring a Break, except mine a 1972 ambulance.

 

[bleudanube]

Well budge, agree that it will be a good riddle, lots of photos should help, but I am sure a few things will stump we when I put her back together. The electrics will be fun as well, the loom has been butchered a fair bit as well.

Babadec: where do you get your specialised “break” parts from? Is any supplier better equipped than others for Safari parts? Der Franzose seems to have a few parts, as does Citro World and the like. Anyone you prefer? Darrin in the UK?

 

[ds21bvh]

Sven,
If the loom has been butchered I'd opt for a new replacement.
Darrin should be able to source one.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[badabec]

Hello, I always use Jamie at DSWorkshop. And wherever possible, I use second hand parts, Jamie has loads.
Jamie sources his new parts from Der Franzose and Citro World etc. I could always go direct but Jamie is free with help and information so I would rather give him a bite of the cherry.
He will send parcels, but he is not set up for it in the way Darrin is. Darrin also has a stock of second hand parts.
In your situation, I would definitely use Darrin.
Peter

 

[forumnoreason]

Des Darrin get his looms from Oldtimer Electrischke or whatever they are called in Der Deutsche uber alles?

 

[bleudanube]

This weekend the last few parts were detached from the chassis: the two rear stub axles and the exhaust. The exhaust was easy, but the axles needed a bit more persuading - got an Enerpak from work, a few blocks of wood to try and push the axles out. It took a fair amount of pressure to the point where it flexed the chassis by about 5mm. Lots of WD40, some heat and a bit of whacking with a mallet and they came out with a bang! Stubborn buggers...


that means the chassis is completely stripped. Satisfying!!!

onto the doors next. Most are in Ok condition, front right has a dented corner, there is a bit of rust in a couple of floors - but all quite straight forward to fix. The glass, guides and locks are good, the internal door handles need replacing.

The doors also show the original (?) colour... looks more yellow than the Brun Isard photos I have seen so far!?

the bench seat springs are badly rusted and lost a lot of tension. Still thinking about changing to a standard sedan seat with foldable arm rest - does anyone have a decent spare one?


Question: were most of the bolts and nuts gold plated on the second nose cars or silver? There seem to be more silver fasteners on this model than on my previous 1970 DSuper?