My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

bleudanube

Active member
Did you line up the flywheel end of the block with the flywheel end of the sump? I didn't align mine properly and had to take the sump off again and re-seal so that the gearbox would mate with block and sump.
Hmmm, not sure I fully understand your comment: the sump can only go on one way, with a dozen or so bolts, so are you taking about the gearbox / block mating faces not aligning (ie the lateral axis in line with the crank) or the actual bolt holes (ie perpendicular to the crank)?

I guess I will find out next weekend when the gearbox goes back on... I hope it will fit.
 

bleudanube

Active member
Yes, you are embarrassing me, I’ve only just finished bodywork ready to get stuck into the mechanicals and you pulled it all apart and back together in a weekend!
In a weekend... I wish. My daughter sent me one of her old Instagram posts recently: “came home and WTF is this? Dad bought a wreck...”. That was two years ago 😂😩.
 

badabec

Member
Hmmm, not sure I fully understand your comment: the sump can only go on one way, with a dozen or so bolts, so are you taking about the gearbox / block mating faces not aligning (ie the lateral axis in line with the crank) or the actual bolt holes (ie perpendicular to the crank)?

I guess I will find out next weekend when the gearbox goes back on... I hope it will fit.
Hello, yes to the faces not aligning. When I did mine, the first time, I thought I had the faces aligned. When I bolted on the gearbox there was a tiny gap between the sump and the gearbox. The next time I bolted pieces of angle iron to the block and the sump to make sure their faces aligned.
 

bleudanube

Active member
Hello, yes to the faces not aligning. When I did mine, the first time, I thought I had the faces aligned. When I bolted on the gearbox there was a tiny gap between the sump and the gearbox. The next time I bolted pieces of angle iron to the block and the sump to make sure their faces aligned.
Got me worried now, so had to check... all good. They align ok using a straight edge.
 

Budge

Well-known member
yes, found them at Der Franzose... so that part’s now easily solved.
I don’t have a knackered bearing plan yet... trick question I assume? Not easy to find replacement bearings or replace/remove them in the first place? At this stage it is based on hope only - hope they are still ok ;)... will know this weekend... the 46mm socket arrived today, so the 38mm one can’t be far behind.

Sorry to dive in here. I recall the discussion about destroying one of the metal dust caps/ cups over one of the nuts on the suspension arms. They have an (M5?) thread on the end so they can be pulled out/ pushed in. In case mine get knackered on removal, i wanted to be sure they were available. Can't find them on Franzose - or not where I'd expect - and have even searched using the Citroen part number. Can you point me to them please Sven- or give me the five digit Franzose part number?
 

Budge

Well-known member
Thanks Faulksy. I'll take a look. Hopefully I won't need them but I've heard they can refuse to come out and they sell replacements for a reason...... Interesting that Franzose don't though! Unless I'm just missing them....
 

bleudanube

Active member
Thanks Faulksy. I'll take a look. Hopefully I won't need them but I've heard they can refuse to come out and they sell replacements for a reason...... Interesting that Franzose don't though! Unless I'm just missing them....
Darrin at Citroen Classics UK had them for me. He might be cheapest as he’s local to you.

the 5mm thread was no match to the corrosion I encountered, so I needed new ones.
 

Buttercup

Well-known member
Darrin at Citroen Classics UK had them for me. He might be cheapest as he’s local to you.

the 5mm thread was no match to the corrosion I encountered, so I needed new ones.
I have found that the caps rarely come out in a reusable condition.

In the past I have machined new ones from acetal plastic bar, with an M12 threaded hole. A very short M12 bolt as a plug. Then use a long M12 bolt to screw in until it hits the end of the arm, then keep screwing to pull the cap out.
They are easier to fit and easier to remove........ and they don't rust.
 

bleudanube

Active member
Ok, will need some help in preparation for this weekend. I have never set up the timing from scratch on a car, so have been watching the Dutch DS Technisch Team and the D3Shooter videos.... here my understanding:

- pre 71 carbie engines need to be set to 12 degrees before cylinder 1 TDC on the compression stroke
- put the pin into the slot in the flywheel, which is 12 degrees (assuming I have the original flywheel)
- do I then just mark the camshaft pulley right at the top or do I have to find 6 degrees (half the 12 degrees of the crank) before TDC again on the pulley?
- If yes, that mark would have to be put counterclockwise further ‘up’ the pulley? At 6/360th of the pulley circumference?
- the distributor slot is parallel with the housing and the small half donut towards the block as per manual
- I then turn the distributor until the points just.... close or open?
- The distributor finger then points to cylinder 1, then count... clockwise or counterclockwise to plug in the correct firing sequence 1, 3, 4, 2?
- once the engine is installed and running use the timing light to confirm the 12 degrees via the mark on the camshaft pulley
- all done

Is that how it is done? As the old engines don’t have a timing gauge I am not sure what I have to mark where on the pulley so I can use the timing light correctly.

help welcome. Sven
 

Buttercup

Well-known member
With the pin in the flywheel, pull number 1 spark lead off and put it on a spare plug.
Sit that on the rocker cover.
Now loosen the dizzy clamp.
Slowly rotate the dizzy one way, then the other until you see a spark at the plug.
Now rock it slightly and repeatedly at that point to see repeated sparks, coinciding with the points opening. Put it to the nearest you can get it to the point of spark creation.
Tighten the clamp.
That should be it.
You can adjust it slightly with the engine running, to achieve max idle speed without any missing.
In 45 years of fiddling with long stroke Dees I've never used a timing light.
Never seen the need.
I remember in 1978 I went to a club tech day, and an enthusiastic guy with a fancy meter thingy insisted on setting my ignition.
When I went to drive home it ran like a hairy goat. So I reset it my way...... sweet as!
 

Buttercup

Well-known member
When you assembled the engine did you slather everything with lots of oil?

Before starting the engine, make sure it has oil up...... ie the pump and galleries are full, and oil is being delivered to everything.
To do this i take the rocker cover off and hand crank it until I see oil dribbling down the rockers.
You can take the plugs out to make the cranking easier.

It's quite a lot of cranking....... but it's worth it.
 

fritzelhund

Well-known member
Ah !! The dreaded timing pin in the awkward slot method. A couple of memories from half a century ago. (1) There can be "false positives" the pin may engage on other depressions in the flywheel, giving a false reading. (2) remember to REMOVE THE PIN ... even a quick pulse of the starter will see your pin seriously bent or broken and bloody difficult to extract. Do not use a drill bit .. something softer just in case. (3) In order to determine TDC why not just slip some non metal and sacrificial "rod" down the #1 spark plug hole. IIRC I used a plastic or bamboo chopstick. With all the spark plugs removed and a slow crank with the crank handle the slow up and down movement of the rod can easily be seen to rise and fall showing the actual piston's stroke. The piston is directly under the plug hole after all. It is more easily seen if the tappet cover is off and valve actuation is visible too, so you can see if it is a compression stroke.
Keep going in the direction of engine running, and not backwards ( the starting handle is only a one way affair ) remember there will be some movement of the timing chain. I presume Bob's "rock it slightly" refers to the distributor and not the engine. As Bob suggests you will be able to see the actual moment of spark creation.
Depending on the degree of assembly you have done ( no shrouded radiator in the way ) already it may be possible to rotate the engine by hand via the drive belts ... all spark plugs removed of course. That was a necessary method in Borg Warner automatics and 5 speed cars (?) as there is no crank handle engagement possible at the front of the gearbox.
The actual distributor drive is a pretty sloppy affair being just a dog in a slot and the bracketry/clamp, if it has the cable adjustment for the dash advance/retard knob is a less than exact device.
Keep up the amazing work.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
You don't need the timing pin. Just push a piece of fuel line down No1 plug hole and put the car in gear, roll the motor over and when you hear the fuel line puffing, you have No1 on the compression stroke. If you drop something down the plug hole, bring the piston to the top, so your guide is at it highest point and the piston is between rising and dropping. You are now at TDC on No1. You can check any timing scale and holes are where you expect. Its amazing how often the timing scale can be wrong on a motor. If you roll the motor back slightly the timing hole should come into view.
 

gerrypro

1000+ Posts
The true way to find TDC is to use a degree plate on the crank shaft. Yes I know that this is only possible with an engine out situation . But you can bolt up the plate and use a dial gauge to measure the piston height as it approaches TDC. There will be a dead spot of about 2-3 degrees over the TDC. Therefore measure the height before TDC ------ say 5mm before and make a mark against a fixed pointer on the degree plate. Now take the piston to 5mm after TDC and make another mark on the degree plate. Exactly half way between these two marks is exact TDC. Mark the degree plate at this point and turn the crank until the new mark coincides with the pointer. You now have exact TDC. From there you can gauge the opening points and closing points of valves and also the exact firing point of the ignition!
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
The true way to find TDC is to use a degree plate on the crank shaft. Yes I know that this is only possible with an engine out situation . But you can bolt up the plate and use a dial gauge to measure the piston height as it approaches TDC. There will be a dead spot of about 2-3 degrees over the TDC. Therefore measure the height before TDC ------ say 5mm before and make a mark against a fixed pointer on the degree plate. Now take the piston to 5mm after TDC and make another mark on the degree plate. Exactly half way between these two marks is exact TDC. Mark the degree plate at this point and turn the crank until the new mark coincides with the pointer. You now have exact TDC. From there you can gauge the opening points and closing points of valves and also the exact firing point of the ignition!

You probbably only need to be that accurate to set cam timing etc..... :)
 
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