My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

[citroenthusiast]

The 40mm rear Safari Hydraulic cylinders are as "Scarce as Hens Teeth" Sven. Put the word out asking if there is a "wreck" Safari out there somewhere. I used the cylinders out of my Safari wreck to replace the ones in my green Slough Safari that had been fitted with the smaller sedan cylinders.
Michael

As it turns out, I have a pair of the 40mm LHM Safari cylinders with pistons that are like new. About 20 years ago, I parted out a car that had only seen about 50,000 miles of use before it was T-boned in an intersection. They have been on a shelf in dry Phoenix Arizona ever since. Postage from the US will be expensive but feel free to contact me if you exhaust your local possibilities.

 

[bleudanube]

Well, my peroxide idea to ‘bleach’ the return lines back to white didn’t work at all - to the contrary, it made them darker... ah well, sun tanned looks are in I guess...

I cleaned up all the HP pump parts, one face of the carrier is a little pitted and the shims also have marks on both sides: question: are those still workable or do i need to machine the face and change the shims?

Next I disassembled the break pedal cluster - besides a bit of grime it all looked it fair condition. Of course the steel holder needs to be painted and the piping cleaned up and new seals.

So, onto the height correctors - they were definitely in pretty bad state. A lot of corrosion, grime and residue in them and I struggled to remove the shim and spacer stack. One spacer is still stuck in it... let’s see whether I can get it out next weekend.

also finished cleaning up the front suspension parts and the fluid reservoir - ready for painting.

the next lot of parts and seals are under way, ordered them from Darrin at Citroen Classics in the UK. And thanks to John two 40mm rear cylinders are in the mail from the US. Also found most of the power steering parts and steering wheel - just can’t get to them with the restrictions in Melbourne... annoying!

 

[Middlemoon.1]

Hey Sven, what black paint are you using for mechanical parts?

 

[DoubleChevron]

That height correct I'm betting will be fine (so long as the seal lip around the edge isn't corroded). The end seals are probably like new (the rubber Citroen used on the brake fluid cars is just incredible). The dust jackets are probably dead though. It'll free right up once you get it apart and clean it all with alcohol (well they always do in my experience either way!).

seeya
Shane L.

 

[bleudanube]

Tim, I will be using Valspar TB300 gloss black With RS300 reducer in 4:1 to start with and see how that goes. Small parts have been done with a can, but I will redo the axles and fuel tank - I am not the Painting expert, so we will see how this will go.

Shayne, the HC all cleaned up well, just one spacer of the ‘dash pot’ is stuck...

What do those shims and washers actually do? They cannot move anywhere as they are held tight by the screw, so isnt it a static arrangement? The middle, larger washer has the hole for the fluid. But all the others are solid... anyone know? Or is the whole arrangement able to move?

 

[faulksy]

The stack of shims and washers is there to restrict the movement of fluid between the two sides of the height corrector. It helps to limit over correcting and oscillating.

Most of this site is lifted from the hydraulic course notes manual but makes for good reading http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/index.html?hc/chapter4.html

 

[DoubleChevron]

Tim, I will be using Valspar TB300 gloss black With RS300 reducer in 4:1 to start with and see how that goes. Small parts have been done with a can, but I will redo the axles and fuel tank - I am not the Painting expert, so we will see how this will go.

View attachment 125862

Shayne, the HC all cleaned up well, just one spacer of the ‘dash pot’ is stuck...

What do those shims and washers actually do? They cannot move anywhere as they are held tight by the screw, so isnt it a static arrangement? The middle, larger washer has the hole for the fluid. But all the others are solid... anyone know? Or is the whole arrangement able to move?

Its a fast reaction valve. The really early cars don't have this .... They overshoot there height changes ... then correct ... then overshoot then correct ..... all lots of fun! This just slows down the correction of the height.

That industrial enamel seems quite good. I painted the tractor here with it. It seems to stick like merde to a blanket (even without undercoat) and dries with a good shine. It nothing like the old "enamels" that used to take forever to dry!

 

[Budge]

Just curious. I notice the can in your photo says high gloss, but the white sticky label says 30% satin?

I'm searching for the 'perfect' black paint for the chassis of my DS saloon here in the UK. Not a wet-look high gloss, but something more than satin. Brands are helpful with their descriptions. Although there is an accepted scale for % gloss, the ranges vary greatly and 'semi' goes from about 55% gloss up to 70% - so could equally be called 'satin' at the bottom end of that range. So one suppliers 'semi-gloss' could be another 'satin'.

Tim, I will be using Valspar TB300 gloss black With RS300 reducer in 4:1 to start with and see how that goes. Small parts have been done with a can, but I will redo the axles and fuel tank - I am not the Painting expert, so we will see how this will go.

 

[bleudanube]

Just curious. I notice the can in your photo says high gloss, but the white sticky label says 30% satin?

I'm searching for the 'perfect' black paint for the chassis of my DS saloon here in the UK. Not a wet-look high gloss, but something more than satin. Brands are helpful with their descriptions. Although there is an accepted scale for % gloss, the ranges vary greatly and 'semi' goes from about 55% gloss up to 70% - so could equally be called 'satin' at the bottom end of that range. So one suppliers 'semi-gloss' could be another 'satin'.

well spotted - yes, satin it is. I will take photos when it’s done and see how it will look. I do like gloss, but I thought I try this one... only bought a litre of paint to start with.

 

[citroenthusiast]

..., the HC all cleaned up well, just one spacer of the ‘dash pot’ is stuck...

What do those shims and washers actually do? They cannot move anywhere as they are held tight by the screw, so isnt it a static arrangement? The middle, larger washer has the hole for the fluid. But all the others are solid... anyone know? Or is the whole arrangement able to move?

Look carefully at the shims that form the damper for the HC. Each will (or should) have a tiny hole. I believe you will find that half of the holes will be on center, and half will be near the perimeter. When you reassemble the damper, be sure to arrange these so that the holes do not line up (i.e. on center, then spacer, then off center, then spacer, etc.). This creates a labyrinth for the fluid to go through to get from one side to the other. That's how the damper works to keep the slide valve from moving too quickly. Also, since a small hole in a disk damps fluid flow proportional to the square of the fluid velocity, these disks really work to prevent rapid flow, while allowing pressure equalization. Without this damper arrangement the slide valve in the HC would be oscillating and trying to correct for every bump in the road.

 

[bleudanube]

Look carefully at the shims that form the damper for the HC. Each will (or should) have a tiny hole. I believe you will find that half of the holes will be on center, and half will be near the perimeter. When you reassemble the damper, be sure to arrange these so that the holes do not line up (i.e. on center, then spacer, then off center, then spacer, etc.). This creates a labyrinth for the fluid to go through to get from one side to the other. That's how the damper works to keep the slide valve from moving too quickly. Also, since a small hole in a disk damps fluid flow proportional to the square of the fluid velocity, these disks really work to prevent rapid flow, while allowing pressure equalization. Without this damper arrangement the slide valve in the HC would be oscillating and trying to correct for every bump in the road.

Crikey, must be my eye sight then... or poor lighting in the garage (better excuse - blame the tools ).
I will have a close look and rebuild as you said - thanks for that. Didn’t find that detail in any of my documentation. All good now.

 

[bleudanube]

The painting with the Valspar paint went well. Created myself a “spray booth “ to ensure the overspray doesn’t go eveywhere, which was a good idea... quite a bit of black ended up on my arms, face and hair - DOH

Hung up all the parts, set up the gun and went for it. In hindsight probably a bit too much paint (a couple of runs), next time I wind it in a bit.

Also recoated the rear suspension - mistake! The previous rattle can paint didn’t work with the solvent based paint - all needs to be sanded back and redone. Lesson learnt.

While the parts were drying it was time to start on the engine - nice and filthy !

The waterpump came off first - and it’s buggered. The impeller has been eaten away significantly. Erik, looks like I will take you up on your offer!

the brakes came off easily. The discs are new, with no sign of wear - very good. Need to read up how to take them off ... must be a trick to it!? Same with the gearbox/bellhousing - once I took all the bolts out I thought it just slides off - hmmm

The housing behind the water pump is causing a bit of a problem - one of the bolts’ heads was rounded and has been corroded fast into the housing. So far drilling off the head and putting a large pulled onto it hasn’t budged the thing. Heat next...?!

Also want to take the headlights apart to replate the reflector - I remember someone posting to use paint stripper to dissolve the white mastic - but not sure how that will work? The housing appears to be crimped onto the glass.
has anyone pulled them apart before? How is it done? Any help appreciated!

Good progress. Nice to work on smaller items. Have also found a power steering style wheel, so one item down.
Now, time to read up how to remove brake discs and gearbox - can’t be that hard...

Sven

 

[faulksy]

Dismantling headlights is an interesting challenge. You can bake them at about 150C to soften the sealant and then apply a very sharp knife. The other option is to try a few solvents to see which softens the sealant. You need to be very careful levering on the glass lenses as they have a tendency to crack without warning. Removing the bulb holder and pushing on the lens from behind is also an option.

 

[bleudanube]

Read my books and manuals and cannot find anything as to how to remove the brake discs on the earlier ID/DS. There are no bolts that seem to be holding the disc onto the gearbox, so how do they come off? What am I missing..?

 

[faulksy]

The quick bit of reading I've done suggests that the discs are part of the output shaft. The parts manual doesn't list the discs separately

 

[fritzelhund]

The long stroke discs never wear out anyway, unlike the later triaxe design. Your biggest concern will be the state of the oil seals and the drip removal pipes that may be filled with detritus....and internal decay/dirt of the adjustment ratchets that take up wear with handbrake usage...the so called clockwork mechanism.

 

[bleudanube]

Thanks gents... I will start by pulling off the output shaft housings and the d-shaped support brackets. Maybe the whole shebang comes off as one part. The discs are like new, which is good, but that way I can check the seals and drain tubes.
the exploded drawings seem to indicate that the discs and shaft are one part, but no one seems to be selling spare discs with shafts attached. You would think someone does...

 

[bleudanube]

Looks like the engine has been rebuilt at some stage. After finally getting the gearbox off (helps to take all the bolts out - idiot me) I got started tearing down the engine.

the valve train is in good condition and none of the head bolts were seized - a good start. However the coolant residue clogged up the channels badly. Once cleaned it should all be ok though.

besides the crud, the barrels look good, a light hone might be all they need. Carbon build up is minimal.

The timing chain seems worn (it has about 1.5mm play at the top of the sprocket and 1.5cm between the sprockets), so I will replace it and fit a chain tensioner. Apparently an after market one is available - strange that these engines never had a tensioner...

Pushrod cups are like new. As are the rods and rockers.

The big end is also in good nick. Crankshaft is unmarked, as are the domes and bearing surfaces on the camshaft.

The shells are 0.5mm ones, hence me deducting that the engine has been rebuilt.

Getting the barrels out of the block was a bit nerve wracking - using a block of wood worked for the first 10mm until the bottom lip touches the housing... luckily one of the cups from my suspension bushing Extractor set has exactly the same diameter and enabled me to hammer them out without damage.

Nice and cruddy...

10 pictures are the most, so part 2 to come...

 

[bleudanube]

Here the “extractor cup method”... worked a treat!

Pistons and Conrods all good, but two rings (piston 1 and 4) were broken! That could have been disastrous if I hadn’t pulled the engine apart - imagine a pice of piston ring making it through the engine...

Do those marking mean anything?

The 0.5mm shells.

And a decent amount of sludge... about a centimetre think goo - yuk

One thing I stuffed up was that I, to losen the sump gasket, hit the sump with a hammer on just the wrong corner and broke off the tab... crap! A light tap, not realising the sump was glued on with sealant, not a gasket, so it didn’t budge. Got to find myself an aluminium welder...

 

[bleudanube]

finally got the waterpump spacer off. Had to drill out the whole length of the bolt, then drill out the remainder in the head and retap the thread.

Also worked out a way to take the brake discs off. It appears you have to take the d-shaped holders and the shaft housings off as well to remove the whole assembly.... but now I am still stuck as it looks like I need some long, 36mm or so tube socket... who would ever have something like this in their toolbox?!

Anyway, I will clean the whole thing up and see whether it is all good so I don’t need to disassemble it any further. What an effort if you ever have to change the front discs.

The gearbox seems to be fine as well. No pitting or metal residue on the magnet plug, all clean and wear surfaces look fine. So I will put it all back together and only clean it up, ready to go back in.

well, better than finding a buggered gearbox.

Sven