Manic 108 rebuild onto new R8 /10 platform

[Manic GT]

Headlights look convex but you say they're R8/10. We got the concave glass, which in my opinion looks better though I am not sure how much it helps with aerodynamics. Anyhoo. Was the convex glass a North America thing?

Can you get a tapered chrome bezel for the headlights? It would look better in my opinion. The square bezel sticking above the bodywork is a bit frogeyed to my eye and the black really draws attention to it. You might have to go smaller diameter headlight glass. I think a Toyota Liteace headlight might be the go but you'd have to find a bezel for it.

The head lights are stock American round R10 1970 headlight pots ! The lenses are just a fit in replacement stock H2 unit but high out put . This is Manic is to be a replica of the original car and that has been part of my struggle with this rebuild . Do I go after a modern time period totally or do I stick with the 1970 theme ?
Schlitzaugen I do have 8 of these cars to work with and this is the first one to do a rebuild so stay original vs go wild with a build has always been a dilemma ? especially with the rarity of this Canadian car. The power plant is the next problem stay some what original so I don't need a front rad or go radical with the 1647 cross flow dual side draft carbs or possibly a mid engine with a north American 3.8 super charged engine with a wide body kit ?
I choose to try to stay as stock as possible looking as a tribute to this particular car build. But the next one will probably also be Renault with front mount rad large engine and more radical mods for looks and as you suggest with proper modern LED headlights .
The last build will be the mid engine north American V6 high horsepower like the conversion I put into a Winnebago motor home that had the 2 liter Renault power plant in it . This was a earlier project for a friend but 500hp out of a 3.8 series 2 Buick V6 with 20 pounds of boost sounds like it could be a lot of fun !
I am not sure that a American style build is what the Renault forum is about !

So stay safe everyone
thanks for the interest in my little project

Manic gt

 

[4cvg]

The trouble with very radical modifications is getting the suspension sorted in a way that gives good handling balance & behaviour.

I assume that you'd end up with a bespoke tube chassis structure with higher adjustable suspension & the Manic body plopped on top.

As for engines, I'd recommend the lightest longitudinally fitted one that you can find for the power that you want.

cheers! Peter

 

[Manic GT]

Peter if going for the V6 supercharged system it would be a mid engine set up using 2 front wheel drive platforms with a tubular roll cage. It would have all coil over shocks and the strut knuckles would be utilized on rear and front using a upper a arm fabricated to bolt onto top of knuckle. The donor cars braking system would be retained so parts would be off he shelf .
that is the cheapest and easiest way to build with out high end mod's . The American Fierro was basically that and that is how it got to the market so quickly .
The subject of building kit cars has come up a few times on the forum. The Manic GT is a example of a cheap designed car that got all the safety approvals for a production car, mostly because it was using components that already existed in the market place like the R10 running gear and the other Renault products so the development costs would be minimal . All they had to do was design a new body that was attractive ! The Manic designer made being smart made a cheap and easy build compared to the normal rigors of a new production car .

Stay well
Manic gt

 

[JohnW]

I suspect the original build you are doing now will be very nice indeed and well balanced and that's nice, to respect what was originally done. Good on you for that. The original lights are available and very good with a bit more wattage. They aren't bad standard actually, Cibie optics being pretty good for the time.

The second will be more fun - there are several people on this forum with heaps of experience in getting more power out of either the Sierra/Cleon engines that the R10 had (so double the power with no weight change, for example) and also know what to do to stop the transmissions going splat with more power..... Some of them may chime in with comments...

The third would be a wild machine. I agree with 4cvg there. Lotus Europas ended up with rather more than Renault power of course.... Regarding mid-engines, again 4cvg knows about them, being the lucky owner of a Matra Jet. Or is his a Djet, can't remember!

Great projects and thanks for sharing them.

 

[Manic GT]

A few more pictures and a question !

As the pictures show the Manic has basically the R8G dash package mounted into a fiberglass dash . I wanted to include a few extra gauges so I took a broken dash filled in the holes and will rework it to include a full gauge package plus reduce a couple of the little warning lights . I am not sure if I am up to speed with the modern sound systems so radio hole is also filled in . I am one that likes to hear the hum of the engine any ways !

I also have rebuilt a 330 trans and am now trying to put the rear swing axles together and was surprised to find that the rear bearings are not a stocked item here in Canada and they say they are not obtainable . I have several cross reference numbers but they all came back as no longer available . numbers I ran SNR 9947 , SKF 440536, and SKF 305862. all the 68 X25 X 19 dimension's . So found a couple of good serviceable bearings to install.

That brings me to the next question and picture The bearings I have they only have one seal side ! the open side is suppose to be installed inwards towards the transmission from what I understand . It looks like there could have been a seal on the transmission side but there is no apparent sealing surface on the axle shaft so did older units that used the grease nipple have different axles because from what I see at the present all pumped in grease would just lay at the base of the housing and never get to the bearing .

any thoughts would be appreciated !

And thanks to Rays article about the reversing lights I may attempt to install a neutral safety switch that mounts in the same fashion as his brake light mod to the clutch pedal using a relay for the stating circuit .

It sure is good to have member's of the forum helping on projects and keeping one from going to far astray !


thanks

Manic gt

 

[schlitzaugen]

Manic,

In my suggestion above I never considered originality vs custom. To keep it short, I would go with whatever makes the car better, but keep in mind, power is not a factor in my idea of better. I can easily think of many overpowered cars that I would not have and would be difficult to enjoy, but hey, whatever blows your skirt.

The headlight just look odd with the black bezels, I thought you might want to know. I would try to find a tapered bezel just to blend the line into the body curve a bit better. In my opinion that would look a lot better and avoid the dogs' balls right where the eye looks.

About seals.

It is a long time since I had my R10 so I don't remember what sort of seals it had back there, but I remember the bearings were quite common, not like those on the front, which had a seal as part of the bearing itself. The pictures you put above suggest there was a felt type seal, and given there is no clear journal for a rubber type seal, that is what I would be tempted to use. You could even use some tough thick leather, that would be very good at keeping grease in by running on that rough surface.

And yes, I think that is a ring from an old seal there.

 

[JohnW]

The wheel bearing presses onto the splined end of the shaft hard against that small face at the end of the tapered part of the axle. In all the RERs, the only seal is on the outside of the bearing, in the component that retains the bearing against the end of the swing axle using three studs with 17 mm nuts if I recall. Happily I've only ever had mine off once in 47 years. The wheel hub is in turn slides onto the splines, a tight fit achieved when doing up the main hub nut, and it is held against the bearing inner, the outside of the hub itself being machined to bear against the seal. So the seal is to stop grease coming out towards the brakes.

You'll know whether that bit of thin steel inside the hub is the remnants of something by measuring the OD of the bearing. I doubt it is/was a seal as it is exactly where the bearing sits in the end of the swing axle. When it is light here, I'll go and pull one of my spares out and have a close look.

The R8s and earlier models had a grease nipple for the rear wheel bearing. In Australia, the R10s had a screwed plug there and of course a grease nipple could be fitted. I used to give mine a squirt of bearing grease every year or so and the bearings lasted 250,000 km or a bit more from new. However, it was typical, when dismantling old RERs, to find a lot of clean grease on the outer part of the axle shaft, suggesting you are right that not much of it gets where you want it. Unless you are planning to do 10,000 miles every year, those bearings will last a very long time packed properly on assembly I reckon.

These wheel bearings are available ex-France from the usual suppliers. A fully-sealed bearing would be the best answer and I don't know whether they might be available - I think you can get them for the 4CV but it is a bit smaller than the R8. There was talk a few years ago that it is exactly the same as a particular Toyota gearbox bearing except for a small champfer that is needed - Sunroof might know.

Good work over there!!

 

[JohnW]

Manic,

In my suggestion above I never considered originality vs custom. To keep it short, I would go with whatever makes the car better, but keep in mind, power is not a factor in my idea of better. I can easily think of many overpowered cars that I would not have and would be difficult to enjoy, but hey, whatever blows your skirt.

The headlight just look odd with the black bezels, I thought you might want to know. I would try to find a tapered bezel just to blend the line into the body curve a bit better. In my opinion that would look a lot better and avoid the dogs' balls right where the eye looks.

About seals.

It is a long time since I had my R10 so I don't remember what sort of seals it had back there, but I remember the bearings were quite common, not like those on the front, which had a seal as part of the bearing itself. The pictures you put above suggest there was a felt type seal, and given there is no clear journal for a rubber type seal, that is what I would be tempted to use. You could even use some tough thick leather, that would be very good at keeping grease in by running on that rough surface.

And yes, I think that is a ring from an old seal there.

Not exactly. The fronts did have a funny, separate seal under the inner front wheel bearing. There are two types, one for early R8s and one for the later R8 and R10 models that had the larger stub axle.

The rear bearing has to go fully into that socket at the end of the swing axle, so there is no obvious way of fitting any sort of seal in there on the inner side of the wheel bearing. It's not needed anyway.

 

[schlitzaugen]

There you go.

My R10 was a 1966 round eye, no idea if that makes it late or early, but the inner front bearings had seals on them from factory (looked like a normal oil seal held with a metal ring on the outer race). I know because I had to change both and it was a nightmare to find them. I ended up using FAG bearings if it matters. It was he only brand I could find.

 

[JohnW]

Amazing you could find those bearings at all outside the Renault family. I think they were unique to R10. They are a 30204 but with an inbuilt inner extension.

Round-eye is early R10 but all the R10s had that specific bearing as they all had the stronger stub axle. The early R8s like mine had the same stub axle as the 1950 4CVs, i.e. the R1062 model. If you think they are flimsy you should see what they replaced...... By and large they were just fine, it being a light car.

 

[schlitzaugen]

I remember when looking for the bearing a lot of people advised me to machine down the stub axle to take a standard 30204 which were on every street corner. It was the standard mod done back then, so no, my bearing was not one of those. I was reluctant to take some of the meat away even though the load on it must have been low enough that the stub didn't suffer, after all as you say they came from the factory like that.

Yeap, it was total nightmare to find those bearings, they had to come as a special order from Portugal of all places and it took ages. Kudos to the company that took the trouble to get me two of them. Don't think there was much money in it for them either but they really cared about their customers. That is what a competitive commercial environment does for you, I guess.

 

[JohnW]

Good you ignored the advice. I'd never heard of anyone doing that!! Sounds like a bad idea to me. The stub axles were more or less strong enough for normal R8 use, but of course the R10 was heavier at the front. I imagine they slightly increased them when the R10 started and used the bigger ones on all the R8s from then on.

 

[Sunroof]

I just got new inner and outer bearings for my R10. They were NOS from Australia $85 for the 30204 with extension. But he also said he could source them from o'seas for $65. I also ordered two of those but that was some weeks ago and haven't seen them. Either not available or stuck in the Corona Virus hold ups. I should call and ask I guess.

 

[pugwash]

someone on here mentioned a place called Surplus Bearings at Slacks Creek south of bris ,buys up old stock bearings ,might be worth a try for locals .

 

[JohnW]

Back to the rear hub and bearing and seals. They last so well that I've only once ever had to dismantle that area in 47 years. As promised on 26 April, and for which apologies re my delay, I've pulled out a spare R8/10 swing axle, my spare rear wheel bearings and my factory workshop manuals for drum-braked Dauphine Gordini and disc-braked R8).

I'd not given it much thought but it is a very strange arrangement at the end of the swing axle.

In the earlier drum-braked models, Dauphine and 4CV, the wheel bearings are held by a retainer and sit INSIDE that machined recess at the end of the swing axle. The grease seal is in that retainer, facing towards the bearing, with the hub machined to seal and to hold the inner part of the bearing against the step in the half-shaft. The nylon disc on one side of the standard bearing is set on the inside, the transmisson side, so grease is retained between the disc and the actual seal. There is no inner seal.

I've never seen one of the last Dauphines with disc brakes.

In the later cars, R8/R10, the outer part of the swing axle is exactly the same as in your Manic photograph. There is that funny bit of thin steel pressed into the machined socket and it is NOT the remnants of a seal. There is no inner seal. As with the Dauphine, the bearing is fitted with its nylon disc on the inside and the bearing retainer holds a grease seal facing inwards, so the grease is trapped. The bearing OUTER sits against the machined end of the swing axle, held there by the bearing retainer and NOT sitting inside the machined socket of the swing axle. The inner part of the hub bears against the inner part of the bearing, with its machined surface fitting exactly inside the seal.

The R8 half shaft is slightly longer than the earlier models, which is consistent with the bearing sitting perhaps 10 mm further out from where the shaft engages with the UJ.

You've usefully made me look at this carefully! I cannot for the life of me see how grease could get to the bearing from where the grease nipple passageway emerges inside the end of the R8/10 swing axle except by divine intervention.... Maybe that is why R10 models had a screwed plug there instead of a grease nipple. The same applies for the Dauphine Gordini - even though the bearing sits closer to the grease passage, the nylon disc is on that side.

My earlier 4CV is more like the Dauphine of course and definitely did not have that nylon disc in one side of the bearing so maybe grease could actually reach the bearing from the grease nipple...

Anyway you seem to have nothing to worry about in this regard. There must have been a reason, perhaps production, for the stepped machining inside the end of the swing axle. With the weight of the Manic and limited use, the rear wheel bearings might outlast you I reckon, unless you are under about 40!!

We learn all the time, don't we? I've had the R8 for 47 years and had never really looked closely at this exact area. I'd never needed to.....

Hope the restoration goes well as you move into summer.

Cheers

 

[Manic GT]

Thanks John for getting back to me on the rear bearing assembly I found a set of serviceable bearings and clean and repacked them and started to assemble them pressed the bearing into the flange installed flange unit onto axle than realized that the dust shield and hub and rotor will not fit into the caliper bracket that way ! It sure is a fiddly job with all the dust shield bolts and the 3 flange bolts !
If only the caliper bracket assembly was a two piece it would sure make things easier ! One would wonder do you really need all the dust shield bolts plus the larger flange bolts to hold the assembly together ??? All most makes one want to upgrade the brakes just for the sake of making the task easier !

Thanks again
stay well
Manic GT

 

[JohnW]

Thanks John for getting back to me on the rear bearing assembly I found a set of serviceable bearings and clean and repacked them and started to assemble them pressed the bearing into the flange installed flange unit onto axle than realized that the dust shield and hub and rotor will not fit into the caliper bracket that way ! It sure is a fiddly job with all the dust shield bolts and the 3 flange bolts !
If only the caliper bracket assembly was a two piece it would sure make things easier ! One would wonder do you really need all the dust shield bolts plus the larger flange bolts to hold the assembly together ??? All most makes one want to upgrade the brakes just for the sake of making the task easier !

Thanks again
stay well
Manic GT

Easy if you have three hands.... I know just what you mean! Maybe the dust shields were an afterthought?

 

[Manic GT]

Thanks John for getting back to me on the rear bearing assembly I found a set of serviceable bearings and clean and repacked them and started to assemble them pressed the bearing into the flange installed flange unit onto axle than realized that the dust shield and hub and rotor will not fit into the caliper bracket that way ! It sure is a fiddly job with all the dust shield bolts and the 3 flange bolts !
If only the caliper bracket assembly was a two piece it would sure make things easier ! One would wonder do you really need all the dust shield bolts plus the larger flange bolts to hold the assembly together ??? All most makes one want to upgrade the brakes just for the sake of making the task easier !

Thanks again
stay well
Manic GT

As a update I got the rear axle outer assembly put back together than started to move onto the installation of the transmission mounting onto the rear support assembly and I ran into another little challenge !

The side mount rubbers I had ordered does not allow for a easy installation of the dust boot cover at the swing knuckle so I compared the older style mounts to the new ones received and found that there was a difference between the new rubber mounts and the older units originally on the car . I guess my question is was there 2 different styles back in the day or is this just bad quality assurance from the supplier ?
I remember reading about others on the forum having a bit of difficult time installing new mounts after the original ones tore away from the metal plates an now I can fully understand how difficult it would be to force stuff together if the mount was made incorrect in the first place or if you had a mount intended for a different model ??!!

I will probably modify rubber mounts to work but thought I would just get some feed back to see if this is the norm first or I may just install the metal performance brackets and get rid of the rubber mounting .

In the metal unit I was wondering why the bent portion in the bracket? and also on the mounting flanges was there a different set up back in the day ?? I have found a few rubber mounts that had a bolt thru them and the bolt head was under the bend portion so it made me wonder was that a factory thing or just something that was a back yard addition ?

stay well
Manic gt

 

[JohnW]

Regarding those mounts, I honestly don't know. The rubber pads on the original ones did pull away from the metal over time (a couple of decades, that is....). I went and lay under mine (mounts replaced about 35 years ago I guess) and they are OK with room for the rubber cover. It's been so long since I needed to touch them (reliable cars, these rear-engined Renaults!!) but I do vaguely remember needing to use long bolts to pull the metal plates into the right locations when I replaced mine back in the dark ages.

I imagine that once the outer plate on the mount is pulled up into place, there's access for the trunnion boot to fit in.

It may be that the newer mount manufacturers have deliberately increased the area of rubber to metal bonding? Hopefully someone else will know - the guys who run performance cars perhaps?

Regarding your final photo, I've never seen that component myself.

So, all in all, I'm as keen as you to see the answer to your questions!

Best wishes

 

[Sunroof]

As John says, pull up the rubber mounts with long bolts. They then just brush the boot. Actually I always have the boot in place when I bolt up the mounts. I have never seen the bracket you show. Although the few numbers we can see do look rather like the way Renault part numbers are often painted onto parts.