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Is this the best project car you have ever seen?

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Yeah I could leave it as ... I'm sure the "ferral car club" above would happily accept it .... so long as I didn't make it look pretty too :roflmao:

Has anyone heard of or tried epoxy mastic ??

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/another-rust-encapsulator-thread-but-different-173895.html

THe rustoleum version (PPG do one too)
http://www.rustoleum.com/tds/2032990 RO-51.pdf

This stuff sounds ideal. You could paint the hull with a brush all over, yet get the protection offered by an epoxy finish. The visible bits you'd overcoat with some urethane black. (eg: top half of the engine compartment and boot). Then any damage in the future can be fixed by dragging out a touchup paint brush. It avoids having to spray inside the car too ... and spray "upside down" from beneath to do the bottom of the car.

What do you guys reckon ??? ...

Archrival, she's a '63, so the 2nd front ( my favorite ), and high pressure brakes. I'd probably die of fright everytime I used the brakes in an earlier car 'cos my brain would be saying "touch pedal with your big toe" .... when in reality you need to stand on the pedal with both feet and pull on the steering wheel in panic to apply enough force :roflmao:

seeya,
Shane L.
 

GreenBlood

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah I could leave it as ... I'm sure the "ferral car club" above would happily accept it .... so long as I didn't make it look pretty too :roflmao:

Has anyone heard of or tried epoxy mastic ??

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/another-rust-encapsulator-thread-but-different-173895.html

THe rustoleum version (PPG do one too)
http://www.rustoleum.com/tds/2032990 RO-51.pdf

This stuff sounds ideal. You could paint the hull with a brush all over, yet get the protection offered by an epoxy finish. The visible bits you'd overcoat with some urethane black. (eg: top half of the engine compartment and boot). Then any damage in the future can be fixed by dragging out a touchup paint brush. It avoids having to spray inside the car too ... and spray "upside down" from beneath to do the bottom of the car.

What do you guys reckon ??? ...

Archrival, she's a '63, so the 2nd front ( my favorite ), and high pressure brakes. I'd probably die of fright everytime I used the brakes in an earlier car 'cos my brain would be saying "touch pedal with your big toe" .... when in reality you need to stand on the pedal with both feet and pull on the steering wheel in panic to apply enough force :roflmao:

seeya,
Shane L.
Shane I don't know the answer, but I'm sure I'm not alone :clown:

The concern I have with products that cure rock hard is that the rust can still be active underneath, rotting away relatively undetected. A softer coating will protect and should give clues of rust activity ealier? Whatever you use on the exposed outer surfaces will not stop what is happening on the inside of channels/ rails etc, you'll need a very good protectant sprayed into those areas (Lanolin)?

A washing machine is a good example of how rust can be deceptive under a hard coating, the enamel/ceramic is sometimes all that is left after the rust has eaten the metal underneath :eek:

Cheers
Chris
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Yeah... box sections ect... will have something like lanoguard sprayed into them(as will the roof areas, under the brake pedal box etc...). I still need a decent starting point. This stuff sounds like a good epoxy primer rather than a "rust encapsulator" such as POR :confused:

The bonus is you can overcoat it if you need to in the future

seeya,
Shane L.
 
I am by no means a good restorer of cars but I often clean the area best I can and apply PENETROL which is a rust inhibitor.
Then I apply ZINC OXIDE PRIMER which also can have Penetrol mixed in and after that I paint with whatever colour.
I find this good in the boot ( trunk for the Yanks ) areas etc.

Good luck with this one. I've seen better but also a whole lot worse.

And Helmut, if you read this, - - - that car of yours was in very good, clean and complete condition when I sold it for $1000 or so to the guy Bathurst way. It might have needed some motor work and definitely the radiator doing and the front brakes were seizing up. Michael said that when he saw you in Scotland you indicated that the car wasn't all that complete so that must have happened after I sold it. It didn't have canola in at that stage either.

At least here is another that will hopefully feel the road at a decent speed once more.

Have fun, John Paas.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
I am by no means a good restorer of cars but I often clean the area best I can and apply PENETROL which is a rust inhibitor.
Then I apply ZINC OXIDE PRIMER which also can have Penetrol mixed in and after that I paint with whatever colour.
I find this good in the boot ( trunk for the Yanks ) areas etc.

Good luck with this one. I've seen better but also a whole lot worse.

And Helmut, if you read this, - - - that car of yours was in very good, clean and complete condition when I sold it for $1000 or so to the guy Bathurst way. It might have needed some motor work and definitely the radiator doing and the front brakes were seizing up. Michael said that when he saw you in Scotland you indicated that the car wasn't all that complete so that must have happened after I sold it. It didn't have canola in at that stage either.

At least here is another that will hopefully feel the road at a decent speed once more.

Have fun, John Paas.
Thanks John,

you have better ?? Are they for sale :p Certainly the DS19 you sold Roger is one of the most structurly sound cars left.

I think if you can pull apart an old ID to this point and still find little evidence of major rust, your doing well IMO. I pulled the nosecone off last night. One chassis horn is slightly bent (a gentle nudge in the nose at some point.... We already know about this as the bumper is slightly bent and the undertray dented.... peice of cake to fix). However this has allowed moisture down into the chassis horn so there is a rust hole in the bottom of only one of them .............. You know, it's still one of the best I've come across. Most you look at already had plates welded over the lower box sections out on the nose 40years ago :)

There's no doubt this one will be on the road in a few months time wearing a set of club registration plates. Then over time we can prep/paint the panels. I don't mind the "aged" look, it's earnt all the crazed paint and battle scars it already has :).

seeya,
Shane L.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Hi Guys,

have a read of POR hardnose .... This must be an epoxy ?? It sounds ideal and isn't UV sensitve. It also sounds like it will be totally un-affected by brake fluid :confused:

http://www.ppcco.com.au//topcoat_hardnose.htm

What do you guys think? Remember it's activated .... Hardeners are very nasty chemicals... Users beware! (hey at least your not spraying in a fine mist infront of your face!).

seeya,
Shane L.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
This is exactly what I intended to do ....



That hardnose is completelly impervious to brake fluid and petrol..... So long as we don't get any rust under it (or issues with it lifting). We have a winner for brake fluid car hulls by the looks of it!

seeya,
Shane L.
 

helmut

New member
I am by no means a good restorer of cars but I often clean the area best I can and apply PENETROL which is a rust inhibitor.
Then I apply ZINC OXIDE PRIMER which also can have Penetrol mixed in and after that I paint with whatever colour.
I find this good in the boot ( trunk for the Yanks ) areas etc.

Good luck with this one. I've seen better but also a whole lot worse.

And Helmut, if you read this, - - - that car of yours was in very good, clean and complete condition when I sold it for $1000 or so to the guy Bathurst way. It might have needed some motor work and definitely the radiator doing and the front brakes were seizing up. Michael said that when he saw you in Scotland you indicated that the car wasn't all that complete so that must have happened after I sold it. It didn't have canola in at that stage either.

At least here is another that will hopefully feel the road at a decent speed once more.

Have fun, John Paas.
Hi John
We knew when we bought it that it had been partially stripped but did not mind as the body was so good and only some of the mechanics were missing, not a problem here as most cars rot away before the engine etc is worn out!! Apart from that I had broken a 2nd nose D some time before and had lots of mechanical parts.
cheers
Helmut
 
I'm pleased Helmut that it was all "cocha". I'm pleased that this car of Shane's might come good. I remember bringing back a metallic blue 21 Pallas Hydrauligue from Canberra. Michael was in his green with silver stripe '62 ID. We literally flew home swapping cars. The Hydraulique was good on the takeoffs but didn't the ID go. I remember passing a bus and wondered why it was going so slow and looked at the speedo and I was doing 90 - - mph. Bit naughty really. It was that ID and not the Tom Eyears car that Michael took on one of the Raids. Anyway, Helmut, hope those height correctors are getting there. Michael said Scotland was pretty nippy so you have it pretty hard compared to us Aussies "up in the tropics".
And yes, Michael loves his '61 ID so Shane - - -GO FOR IT !!

John Paas.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
I'm pleased Helmut that it was all "cocha". I'm pleased that this car of Shane's might come good. I remember bringing back a metallic blue 21 Pallas Hydrauligue from Canberra. Michael was in his green with silver stripe '62 ID. We literally flew home swapping cars. The Hydraulique was good on the takeoffs but didn't the ID go. I remember passing a bus and wondered why it was going so slow and looked at the speedo and I was doing 90 - - mph. Bit naughty really. It was that ID and not the Tom Eyears car that Michael took on one of the Raids. Anyway, Helmut, hope those height correctors are getting there. Michael said Scotland was pretty nippy so you have it pretty hard compared to us Aussies "up in the tropics".
And yes, Michael loves his '61 ID so Shane - - -GO FOR IT !!

John Paas.
We can't rush these things ... A little investigation of the right products up front can't hurt :)

I've decided what i'm going to do .... Buy a tub .... more likely a few pressure packs of this primer:

http://www.hichem.com.au/hicheminfo/PIDS/Indust/Sep.pdf



It's not expensive, made by hi-chem. The super etch one. When I painted the CX (it would have to be more than 6years ago), I painted all the body strips and small "bits" on the exterior of the car with this stuff. The adhesion to those "pallas" shiny strips is very difficult to acheive (them being painted black on the GTi's). I expected this stuff to lift off in a short time. Well I've just walked around the CX and carefully checked everything. Yep the paint all over the car is definately buggered ... certainly she needs a respray ..............except the bits I primed with this stuff and painted satin black. They are absolutely perfect. No signs of lifting. I was really impressed with this stuff when I painted it from a pressure pack ... Now I'm blown away with how impressive it is. No delamination even when applied to those shiny pallas strips!!

So this stuff to prime (from pressure pack... or brush), you can even leave this primer un-coated for 4months without degradation .... then POR Hardnose over the top... This should give excellent adhesion to the underlying prepared metal, and a rock hard brushable brake fluid impervious top coat.

I guess we'll see how it's worked in another 50years time :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.
 
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DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Hi Guys,

does anyone have any ideas on figuring out how many miles one of these early D's has done ?? I might stick the gearbox out of this one back in ... figuring it may have better synchros due to far less milage.

I lifted the motor out (bugger it breaking the edge of the engine block ... arrrrhhhh.... the rope I was lifting with managed to work it's way between the head and block and lever the head back while i was lifting it out). Anyway, there is no lips at the top of the liners, the lifters show no signs of the hardening wearing off... The brake rotors are **really** thick. Sure it may have had new rotors and new pistons and liners before it was parked up ... but I doubt it :confused: . Can anyone else think of something that should be heavily worn if the cars done a lot of miles ??

seeya,
Shane L.
 

richo

VIP Sponsor
Shane, breaking the engine block?

Look for wear on the mains and big ends. the oil supply is pretty average in these engnes.
Remove the rocker gear and you'll probably be horrified (no, that's me) at the amount of wear on the rocker shaft spindles. due again to marginal oil supply.

More importantly, remove the 14mm hex brass plugs on the crank "pork chops" and carefully clean out the sludge traps which act as a centrifugal filter.
If these are full, then it is likely the engine hasn't been apart.
Best practise suggests replacing the plugs with new ones. They'll be staked with a centre punch mark on the sides to hold them in place.
The plugs are available.
I have engine and transmissions/parts, should you need them. Let me know if you manage to drop the brass thrust pads on the selector fork into the tranny case.....

Hope this helps.
 
She is indeed a find.
Those pressed tin mountings for the weather sealing gaskets on doors and bootlids are a pathetic design but the later method of the foam boot seal was even worse. You are fortunate to find them so intact. same goes for the crimping seals on the lower door triangular seals...
As for age and general looseness consider:
The bearing surfaces that are part of the lower front suspension arms...the case hardening is on the arms themselves and will show wear because of the limited arcing motion.
The front roll bars can become non round under the bearing caps...some of the oldies had a grease line directly to the roll bar bearing caps with the nipple atop the hull near the spheres and under the heater matrix housing. The coil pigs tail spring inside the roll bar to suspension linkages may need an adjustment..easily done as they are just like the gear linkage ball and socket joints.

Never heard of anyone ever needing to replace front discs on an old long stroke gearbox.

The clockwork mechanisms inside the front brake calipers can be seized or have teeth broken.
The bibax (?) rubber cushioning joints that cushion the big sliding housings for the inner universal joints next to the gearbox may be perished from contamination with various oils...also the small cotton reel style rubber bushes that act as the isolators for the front engine mounts under the radiator.
The boots around the steering rack.
Tie rod ends attached to the relays..they are one piece with the relay unlike later short stroke Ds that had a joint at both ends, and the bearings in the relays themselves can pit as the sealing wasn't very good.

I am amazed at the fact that your doors are not torn in the rear corners...I am sure they were never a well planned fit and the doors flex with the loadings from the windows and changing shape between open and closed...can't help thinking she must have had a gentle life.

Replacement of the swivel joints that take brake pressure to the rear drums with hoses is a worthwhile modification to make.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Hi Guys,

The block ?? Yep broken .... ( where's the smiley for slamming your head against a brick wall ?? ... Damn it 'cos i reckon given there is no lips at the tops of the liners and the liners don't look overly glazed..... she would have been a good motor if you chucked a head gasket in and re-assembled.

Richo, it had all the bolts removed from the head, and one of the rears was sheered off defeating any attempt at removing the head. ... While I was lifting b@stard the rope managed to work it's way between the head and block twisting the head backwards and breaking a small piece of block away from around the rear most head bolt. I have no doubts it could be easily repair by a professional welder. If I'd thought for a second something like that would happen, I'd have found 4 head bolts and screwed the corners of the head back down :blackeye:

I did think of the dizzie (no slop that I can find without dismantling), I noticed the generaters brushes are enormous and the commutator looks extremelly good when I pulled it off....

The front rollbars certainly a good idea, a quick check there should reveal how much driving the car has done as no-one will have changed that!

It really is quite remarkable any of these cars have lasted to this age. I think David is right, they have sprayed GMH black over everything. It looks very shiny under bits I've checked (that have always been covered from new) So it could be just black laquer top coat (GMH black is satin right ?). The paint appears to have been applied with no primer at the factory. A lot of it I can scrape back to bare (shiny) metal with my thumb nail :eek: Little wonder the damn things disolved 30years ago :disappr: Everything is black, compared to the later cars, engine block, ( metal ?? not alloy like the later cars ) cross brace between the guards, all the engine fittings... Only the air cleaner and steering column that would have been imported painted are grey.

The clockwork brakes even seem to be free (well the handbrake working is quite amazing IMO). I'll whip the metal parts from the brakes and send them off to the plater either way (there covered in surface rust ... plating will protect).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
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.... (GMH black is satin right ?) .....
I thought it was more of a just off gloss finish, but in a cellulose kinda way. That is, it will never be as shiny as most more more modern paints and it will weather more quickly than later coatings if exposed to the sun. It was meant to be an underbonnet and internal coating. Anyway, it's so inexpensive that it's worth buying some just for the comparison exercise.

Re the engine. Is it the original block? That is, being an Aussie ID, does it have the same number as the body? Maybe, worth repairing if it's the original engine, given the condition of the rest of the car?
 

richo

VIP Sponsor
Shane,
A good engine rebuilder could remove the broken stud and repair the block.
A good mate could offer you a later short motor (with harmonic balancer) assembly in really good condition, that'd be me.

I probably have most of the clockwork brake parts if any are required. Power blocks are available as a reproduction now.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Shane,
A good engine rebuilder could remove the broken stud and repair the block.
A good mate could offer you a later short motor (with harmonic balancer) assembly in really good condition, that'd be me.

I probably have most of the clockwork brake parts if any are required. Power blocks are available as a reproduction now.
Hi Richo,

thanks for the offer, who knows someday I'll probably come grovelling to you begging for them (once you have decided to keep them that is :roflmao: ). The motor out of the black ID19 is going straight in there. If the numbers match, I'll fill this motor with oil and put it into storage. It'll be return to the car at some point in the future if it is the original motor (given it's top end shows little wear). I'm sure someone will be able to weld the block up.

David, I have some GMH black here, I've used it in the past for CX sills (Past ?? Gee's it must be 15years ago ... Gee's I must be getting old :clown: ). I think this would be shinier than that. It was quite "flat" when I sprayed it (that may have been the painter though, not the paint).

seeya,
Shane L.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Re the engine. Is it the original block? That is, being an Aussie ID, does it have the same number as the body? Maybe, worth repairing if it's the original engine, given the condition of the rest of the car?
Bugger me ... Thanks for that David. I never new that. Both the number stamped into the block, and the number on the engine plate ***IS*** identical to the body number. Bugger, I'm gonna have to get that block fixed .... How the hell can a 48year old car still have it's original unworn looking motor in there :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.
 

dino

1000+ Posts
Bugger me ... Thanks for that David. I never new that. Both the number stamped into the block, and the number on the engine plate ***IS*** identical to the body number. Bugger, I'm gonna have to get that block fixed .... How the hell can a 48year old car still have it's original unworn looking motor in there :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.
..because its a citroen...

Shane...how many cans of the super etch do you need...pm me your address...

you ve got a great find there...i am still looking...am finding everything but...Fix the block and try and be more careful next time...


:cheers:

dino
 

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