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Hydrogen as a perfect environmental fuel, but when

Kenfuego

1000+ Posts
We read a lot about the benefits of using a fuel whose only downside is the water by product as the fuel is burned, and that has been a hope for years now on these pages motor cars that enable enthusiasts to enjoy their driving with minimal protest at their use and enjoyment. Some will always complain even in an ideal world, but we all like to do our best.

Excuse the BBC headline, it is the technical part that is most important, and then then the next is dealing with technical issues, easy of use of the fuel and supply chain availability. Not to mention competing products in a world marketplace.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52328786

To get around this problem, the gas is stored at high pressure, around 700 bar, so cars can carry 4-5kg of the gas and travel up to 500km before refilling.
That level of pressure is around 300 times greater than in a car's tyres, and necessitates specially made tanks, all of which add to the cost of the vehicles.
Now researchers believe they have developed an alternative method that would allow the storage of high volumes of hydrogen under much lower pressure.
The team have designed a highly porous new material, described as a metal-organic framework. So, it works exactly like a bath sponge except in a very smart programmed way."
The key ability of the new framework is that it can potentially store hydrogen and other gases at much lower pressures while not needing an enormous tank.
"We can store tremendous amounts of hydrogen and methane within the pores of the metal-organic framework and deliver them to the engine of the vehicle at lower pressures than needed for current fuel cell vehicle," Prof Farha said.
His team have gained experience in developing these adsorbent materials for the US Department of Defence, to protect soldiers against nerve gas attacks,
The researchers say there is now funding available to develop this type of material for transport applications.
The new material has already beaten tough targets set by the US Department of Energy for on board storage and delivery systems for alternative fuels.
Ken
 

Kim Luck

1000+ Posts
Interesting developments. Some of the oxygen storage tanks on board military aircraft contain oxygen at fantastic pressures and the types of tanks have been under constant development generation of aircraft by generation. The storage medium suggested above, if successful enough to put into commercial production could in fact remove the Hindenberg syndrome from hydrogen powered vehicles permanently!
 

Kim Luck

1000+ Posts
In the RAAF, no aircraft is refuelled without it having been grounded to an earth, the tanker or dispensing unit is grounded to an earth and the tanker and the aircraft are grounded to each other before an ounce of fuel is delivered. This practice goes back to the days of AVGAS high octane petrol and is still used with jet fuel, which is like kero or diesel and has saved the Australian government billions of dollars in wasted aircraft. You will all be aware that none of you use the same precautions when filling up at a servo, and there is therefore the possibility of a fire and or explosion every time you do. Hydrogen is even more exciting than 150 AVGAS so it is not a surprise to see the odd fireball.....P.S: The oil industry is always quick to point out any perceived defects of a competing product!
 

JoBo

1000+ Posts
Recall reading about this storage method in the 70s in Popular Science mags. Wonder what took them so long?
 

robmac

1000+ Posts
without it having been grounded to an earth,
Light aircraft are fueled in a similar manner.

Connecting a ground clamp is still mandatory.

The reason for the ground connection between the pump and aircraft is to reduce/eliminate the static electricity generation caused by Avgas flowing a non conductive, neoprene hose.

At least that's my memory of the reason from my private license training some 47 years ago.
 

dino

1000+ Posts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7


I saw this car just after it's release... amazing machine... I was flabbergasted by the size of its wheels and tyres... just a massive machine... anyway... I remember thinking how impressive hydrogen was as a fuel... but as the years have passed... we haven't really seen a lot of development in the field... so the above mentioned tech sounds very promising...

Cheers

Dino

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
 

Kenfuego

1000+ Posts
Of course some technology needs to be applied to the filling stations as well. :)


https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/hydrogen-fuel-station-explodes-in-norway-118954/

This fire was apparently caused by an incorrectly fitted refilling hose connector.
I had to smile at the comments to the article back in June 2019, reminds me of the Toad Pond. So many groups vying for post Covid market advantage, tis interesting to see groups working their way through issues, haven't seen much about our Australian promoted hydrogen transporting of the fuel. Maybe the media isn't following up on it...

Ken
 

jaahn

1000+ Posts
Hi :)
I do believe the hoses on petrol bowsers are conductive in some manner to earth the car when the spout contacts the neck. I guess the hose material has some conductive matter incorporated in the mixture.
Hydrogen has storage problems we know as it "leaks out" through most materials rapidly due to it's smallest atomic size. So some manner of adsorbtion or something will be the answer. But that idea is not new for sure :(
Hydrogen has generated more heat in the reporting than in real use for a long time now ! :)
Jaahn
 

robmac

1000+ Posts
Conductive "in some manner" is not necessary fit for purpose. The hose needs an effective ground connection to the device being refueled.

Hence the ground clamp and provision for connection on light aircraft.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
The main problem I see with hydrogen is the number of coal powered power stations we would need to build in order to drive the hydrogen manufacturing plants .....................
 

robmac

1000+ Posts
The main problem I see with hydrogen is the number of coal powered power stations we would need to build in order to drive the hydrogen manufacturing plants .....................
Hence the imperative to move away from fossil based fuels electricity production :D

Linde (currently the only commercial hydrogen producer) is striving to develop less "electricity hungry " methods of production. Using processing natural gas is one of them.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Hence the imperative to move away from fossil based fuels electricity production :D

Linde (currently the only commercial hydrogen producer) is striving to develop less "electricity hungry " methods of production. Using processing natural gas is one of them.
Interesting, are they breaking down the natural gas into its chemical components .... or burning it to run steam generators :confused:
 

Kenfuego

1000+ Posts
On the grounding issue, I note that in conventional fuel filling stations that if you want to fill a fuel drum, it must be flat on the filing station surface due to possible build up of static electricity in the fuel and vessel.

Ken
 

robmac

1000+ Posts
must be flat on the filing station surface
In every servo in my area "that surface" would be cement paved and often painted

Which is not particularly electrically conductive I would have thought.

I wonder how the connection between the pump and vessel to be filled is reliably established ?

I'm not doubting your info: just trying to reconcile the science with the above info.:wink2:
 

Kenfuego

1000+ Posts
???

In every servo in my area "that surface" would be cement paved and often painted

Which is not particularly electrically conductive I would have thought.

I wonder how the connection between the pump and vessel to be filled is reliably established ?

I'm not doubting your info: just trying to reconcile the science with the above info.:wink2:
Just quoting from the cautionary notices displayed at Service stations.:wink2:

Don't want to start an argument....:tongue:

ken:)
 

Kenfuego

1000+ Posts
Put your fuel drums on the Ground when Filling!!

The woman was filling a 5-litre can for a lawn mower - a total of $5.93 at 118.8c a litre - about 10am (AEST) yesterday when a static electrical charge built up from the petrol entering the can.

The fumes ignited because Rose was holding the jerry can in the air, instead of having it earthed on the ground as instructed by safety signs.
Australian servo, and the signs, perhaps you haven't seen them Rob..

Regards

Ken
 

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