Hot Water Heat Pump Storage

DoubleChevron

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My Shannon's automotive policy is $212 per month, however that is for.
Full comprehensive:
'66 Mustang $42K
'71 Harley Servicar $29K
'57 Studebaker $26K
'71 Citroen DS $21K
'65 F250 $13K
'06 Triumph Rocket 111 $12K
'68 Reliant Regal $12K
'71 F100 $12K
'75 Mini $12K
'73 Mini $8K
2011 Chery $5K (daughter's)
Plus 4 other cars on 3rd party insurance.

I think the premium is fair for the near $200K of comprehensive cover, + 4 "other driver" policies.🤷‍♂️

Home insurance is another story however, after three years in a row of 25%+ increases I finally left the company I'd been with (with zero claims) for 23 years.
The conversation with the "supervisor" (the first guy didn't want to talk to me for some reason 😉) went something like this.

Me "Why has my policy gone up 25% this year"?
"Last year it was because of floods and the year before it was because of bushfires". "What is it this time, an impending asteroid strike, or has the CEO's cat predicted an earthquake"?

Supervisor (after a nervous laugh) "it's because of Covid".

Me " Oh OK, my mate's a police superintendent and he said because everyone has been locked down at home, household related crime is down 40%".

Supervisor (after a long pause) "it's because it will cost more to replace your house because of Covid". " We're trying to keep our policy rises to a minimum you know, we are all doing it tough at the moment".

Me "Your company made a $681 million after tax profit last financial year, do you mind if I don't shed a tear for you"? "Do you think my insurance will continue to go up 25% a year"?

Supervisor "Most likely sir".

Me "do you realise at that rate, in 10 years time my $2500 policy will be over $23,000"? "What do you think the odds are of my wages going up 900% over the next 10 years"?

Supervisor "Hold the line sir let me see what I can do for you"? (a 5 minute pause, then) "Because you're such a valued customer we can reduce the increase down to 14%"?

Me " If I was valued we wouldn't have needed to have this conversation". "You can stick your discount where the sun doesn't shine (or words to that effect), I'll be ringing back to cancel the policy once I have arranged cover elsewhere."

I subsequently got a "like for like" policy from another insurer (that is owned by the very company I was with) for $1500.🤷‍♂️

I think the guy at shannons said the cuttoff for a vehcile considered "vintage" was 30 ... or was it 35years (vintage wasn't the term used, but you get the idea). My premium would be probably 1/3rd of its value if the 407, RCZ and Range Rover (all of which are fully registered) were considered "vintage"

I have found I need to change home insurance every year or so. You get badly punished if you don't shop aroudn. Mine went up I think ti was $1000 this year. I rang them up and said "what the hell ??". They offered to knock some off and I said "try halving it to match the best quote I've got for the identical amount of coverage". She apologised and said she's having this conversation countless time each day and people are leaving in droves. Its out of her hands.

I often get abuse from my wife and get told I'm combative and abuse ( ??? ). I prefer "blunt and no nonsense". If someone tries to bullshit me, I tell them straight to there face they are full of it. They don't try it a second time I've found :clown: She reckons she gets treated completely differently if I'm around at a lot of places. I think it must be my delicate nature :headbanger" 🥳
 
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Greenpeace

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I think the guy at shannons said the cuttoff for a vehcile considered "vintage" was 30 ... or was it 35years (vintage wasn't the term used, but you get the idea). My premium would be probably 1/3rd of its value if the 407, RCZ and Range Rover (all of which are fully registered) were considered "vintage
The Harley, Triumph and Chery are all on full rego the others are on club (out of the comprehensive ones) the "classic" transition date in QLD is 30 years.
I had my wife's 2015 Juke and a 2000 something Starwagon on there earlier in the year ($20 odd K of cover) and it was only an extra $26 per month.

It's a bit funny how the discounting works, I recall adding another F100 I owned to the policy (for an agreed $10K) several years ago and the premium went DOWN $11 per month because of the multi-vehicle discount that applied to the other ones.🤷‍♂️
 

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Cheap insurance may seem a bargain but more important is the performance of the company when it is needed.
The wide tree lined streets in the central part of Ballarat are an excellent example of moderating the extreme heat of summer. (Or has the council cut them all down?) Surrounding a house with deciduous trees like elm, oak or plane allows winter sun but summer shade.
 

Greenpeace

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Cheap insurance may seem a bargain but more important is the performance of the company when it is needed.
I've been with Shannon's for around 20 years, I've have had 2 total loss claims with zero issues.

With the house I went from one well known insurer to another well known insurer (that is now owned by the first one). I've never made a house related claim of any description but both companies have a good reputation for honouring claims. For whatever reason (for identical cover) the second company is 40% cheaper.
 

bob

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Hi bob.

Some questions if I may.

What do you run from your 45kg LPG? Cooking - water heating - room heating?
How many bottles per year do you consume?
What does it cost per bottle or year?

Cheers.

G'day,

gas was around $130 until recently, we've just had a bottle run out so I'll find out what's doing when I go down to exchange it - 6 months ago I got no change out of $150... :( but then there's the old farts concession.... not much though...

Initially, we used gas for cooking only, a bottle easily lasted a year. A couple of years ago we installed an instant gas HWS on the bathroom, as waiting for the water to arrive was like booting a '286' - now the hot water arrives at whatever temp you select in half a minute, great stuff. Kitchen & laundry are served by the old electric storage unit, when it dies I'll likely go for passive solar unit, thermosyphon, with boosting, electric seems the simplest. A few years back a Ballarat lot were offering HWS panels with glass collectors that looked interesting.

The penalty for all this luxury has been a doubling of gas consumption, but, SWMBO now does a power of baking as she has discovered the joys of cooking tasty stuff to flog at the local market once a month. So it's difficult to be totally definitive on consumption.

There's a couple of reverse cycle units here as well but they don't see a lot of action. No panels either - although, we had a sub-continental chap knock on the door offering the same just this week, I avoid this lot like the plague !

Bob
 

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Hi Bob.

So for cooking you said that you consume a single 45kg bottle per year at less than $150, I consider that very modest cost, and confirms what I had thought that gas hobs and oven don't consume much gas.

You mentioned that you now consume two 45kg bottles per year, now that you heat water for your showers and vanity basin. Again, a combined $300 per year is quite reasonable for both of these consumptions. It is less than the $1 per day supply charge to have *mains natural gas connected, which is the point I was making to Ken up in post #128.

I suspect that if you used bottled gas for space heating, your consumption and associated cost would increase significantly.

Enjoy the cakes, but you might need to take up some walking to burn up the additional calories!

* I am aware that you don't have this option where you live.

Based on my own situation and calculations I suspect you will find it difficult to justify solar PV system for a household of two people.

Cheers.
 

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When I look at these insurances so much less than what I pay, and I do look around, I think I had better move to Qld or Vic. Or Is Sydney subsidising the rest of the country in yet another field?

I changed house insurer this year because of the substantial increase from the established Qld based group (too many disasters, they said). I have never made a claim. The new one even included flood insurance, when I live on an extremely steep hill, ie risk equals BA. Family on the other hand have had floods removed from cover now, and a large increase in premium, without ever having claimed
 

DoubleChevron

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Hi Bob.

So for cooking you said that you consume a single 45kg bottle per year at less than $150, I consider that very modest cost, and confirms what I had thought that gas hobs and oven don't consume much gas.

You mentioned that you now consume two 45kg bottles per year, now that you heat water for your showers and vanity basin. Again, a combined $300 per year is quite reasonable for both of these consumptions. It is less than the $1 per day supply charge to have *mains natural gas connected, which is the point I was making to Ken up in post #128.

I suspect that if you used bottled gas for space heating, your consumption and associated cost would increase significantly.

Enjoy the cakes, but you might need to take up some walking to burn up the additional calories!

* I am aware that you don't have this option where you live.

Based on my own situation and calculations I suspect you will find it difficult to justify solar PV system for a household of two people.

Cheers.

They must have very short showers. I reckon we'd use a 45kg every few weeks if we had the showers running from bottled LPG. We have gas cooktop (the actual oven is electric). it uses about 1 bottle per year. You can now swap bottles at APCO. You would need to be fit and strong to man handle a 45kg bottle around though. Ours is through ELGAS at the moment. NExt time it is empty I will again investigate the APCO bottles.

With insurance, we are talking Shannons and limited use classic cars. It is not at all comparable to a modern car that is daily used. Shannons are not competitive for these. Even with my multi-car discounts. I've been often told when I call them I'm there "ideal customer". They were quite surprised to find I had been with them for over 20years last time I called them.... and I gave them a hell of an earful about how disgusted I was with there phone service. The bullshit you have to put up with now to contact them. Years ago, you would call, the phone would ring 3 times .... "Hello, welcome to Shannons, how can we help you". A real person, no endless bullshit being read to you, no phone queues.

I asked about my kids driving the cars (as I'd assumed you would need to be at least 35 years of age to be covered). Shannons told me they could drive any of the classic cars. I said the CX is a petrol turbo and could be considered a "performance car". But nope, the kids are fine to drive it with no extra excess. "Statistically classic cars don't get crashed, regardless of the driver" was the reason. The 407 and RCZ would have much higher excesses though as they aren't considered "classic" yet if the kids drive them.

seeya,
Shane L.
 

Greenpeace

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With insurance, we are talking Shannons and limited use classic cars. It is not at all comparable to a modern car that is daily used. Shannons are not competitive for these. Even with my multi-car discounts.
My experience has been different.
My wife has always had her new/late model cars on the policy and I've never been able find another insurer that could better their quotes.
Same with high HP late model bikes, most of the other insurers don't even want to quote on them, or if they do it's astronomical. My 2006 2300cc Rocket 111 is just over $200 PA for an agreed $12K of cover, my previous V Max was pretty much the same. This is for full rego, full use cover.🤷‍♂️

Their home and contents quote however was not competitive.
 

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My last gas bottle was $143 in April. A big rise in a year. We used to use them for gaslights before we got electricity.
Farm insurance isn't competitive with not many companies operating. A good local agent is important.
 

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Hi Ken.


I would like to see a floor plan of your elderly disabled future residence including orientation to north, similar to what Shane has posted in #125. I would be interested to ascertain what opportunity you have to harvest free solar heating to some rooms. Also include some comments on what insulation your house has. Is your property north or south of the great dividing range (GDR)? Solar PV systems and heat pumps perform better north of the GDR.

Comments:

For heating a house these are the priority order of things to do:
1 - Solar orientation and gain from the sun - to get energy for zero cost. If the house is already constructed, this opportunity has been lost.
2 - Thermal mass - typically an insulated concrete slab to time shift collection and consumption of stored energy for heating. Similar to above comment, but I am assuming that you have a timber floor as you mentioned underfloor ducting.
3 - Insulation and air leaks - fairly self-evident. Probably similar comment to one above, but some opportunities for retrospective improvement.
4 - Sources of top up heating - Which is what post #126 is about; but I suspect this is not top up heating, but the main source of heating.

If you stopped using gas (I assume this is a reticulated mains supply from the street) for your central heating gas furnace, would you still require a gas connection for other gas appliances? eg: hot water, oven, hobs etc? If the answer is yes, then you will still be paying the daily connection cost of approx $1 per day, so every year you pay $365 irrespective of the volume of gas you consume. Unless you can eliminate the consumption of mains supplied reticulated gas, I would be inclined to proceed with the replacement gas furnace. Depending on how many years you consider you will need to occupy your elderly disabled future residence, this might be the most pragmatic decision.

What opportunity do you have to use or expand the heating zones, so that you only pay for gas to heat the areas you are occupying?

If you have and want to retain a gas oven and hobs, these don't consume much gas compared to space heating, and the use of 45kg bottles might be an option. At least that way you can disconnect the mains gas and save $365 every year. I would encourage you to do some basic calculations for this option, to determine the payback of the reverse cycle ducted system.

The obvious benefit of installing a ducted reverse cycle heating/cooling system is that compared to the gas heating option you also benefit from the dehumidified cooler air during warmer weather. I consider the dehumidified air of reverse cycle AC to be superior to evaporative cooling systems, even more so during humid hot weather conditions.

AFAIK most grid connected residential solar PV systems are limited to a 5kW input to the grid and so typically have a 5kW inverter with 6.6kW array of panels. If you can self use additional electrical energy during the day, then you could increase the capacity of the solar panels and self-consume the excess energy. How to do this?

Hot Water:
Well you could use a low cost resistance electric hot water storage cylinder and use this as a battery, when you have lots of surplus kW during the day. I would ensure that it had a smaller 1,800W or 2,400W heating element, so as to reduce the peak demand on your solar PV system during the day, and leave some kW for other uses. I have found that for two people our electric hot water only consumes approx 5kWh's of energy per day, just make sure your storage cylinder is well insulated. You could use a heat pump for the hot water and reduce you kW consumption further, but personally I am not convinced of their durability, and unless you have a large family you will not save much kWh consumption.

The other way to reduce your living costs is to look at other ways to reduce your energy consumption.

Heating:
What is needed is to store some of the energy that your solar PV system will generate during the day, to access in the evening. The easiest way to achieve this is to heat up water during the day and use the stored heat of a night time to heat your home. So a hot water boiler and radiator system would be needed. For that amount of hot water it may be necessary to install a larger heat pump to provide the hot water needed.

Transportation:
Depending on how much petrol/diesel you consume per year, this can be a significant cost driver for home budgets. If you end up installing a larger solar PV system, you will easily be able to reduce your fuel cost to zero, and travel for the cost of the lost opportunity for $0.07/kWh of input credits. If you are no longer working then you have the opportunity to charge the vehicle during the day. In my research and for my situation you only need a 15Amp power point for this. Most people do not need a dedicated home charging system. Yes I know this involves the purchase of a different vehicle and based on your prior posts, I strongly suspect that it will not appeal to you, but it does remain an option until it is discounted. If you are a two car family maybe consider one of these as an electric vehicle?

Hope my thoughts are of assistance.

Cheers.
I'll try and set up a sketch plan, it is of course North of the GDR located at Echuca, so can get a bit Humid on some hot summer days but so far (touch wood) above the present flood levels. The orientation of the house provides morning sunshine to the front of the house and uninterrupted sunshine to the roof all day and also setting sun to the rear of the roof as the sun progresses East to West. House is brick veneer with walls insulated.

All heating and cooling is centrally controlled from one single point, and it presently allows for programming several zones to either exclude or include the zones for best economic operation. The new system will I believe use the same central controller. Roof is heavy tiles and well insulated, but will check that, as this progresses. Easy to add insulation if an extra layer is needed.

At present the whole cost is supply charges, rather than actual energy use charges. With the restricted times we could access the home during the State Lockdowns and when those ceased the number of things like medical appointments that kept us in Melbourne. Generally speaking gas had the lower supply charge and electricity has the higher supply charges. That of course may change in the future.

My daughter in Tassie was a bit worried about whether a pure reverse cycle heating would be enough during winter. But that could be attended to with an electric heater, or even the Seasink suggestion of the Aldi mains electric throws or electric blankets, which are very economical to operate. Otherwise, I could open up the unused/unfinished chimney and fit an efficient wood burning heater. So that contingency is available and plenty of wood available in the rural surrounds of Echuca. Thanks for the input.

Ken
 

seasink

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For those who have gained a few years the capital cost of improvements has to be amortised over remaining life expectancy. Built-in heating and cooling systems don't add value at the property auction as bedrooms and bathrooms do. I did the sums and did not renew my rather old reverse cycle AC system.
 

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For those who have gained a few years the capital cost of improvements has to be amortised over remaining life expectancy. Built-in heating and cooling systems don't add value at the property auction as bedrooms and bathrooms do. I did the sums and did not renew my rather old reverse cycle AC system.

I don't think we care about property value here. We live in these houses. Do what makes your life better/easier, not what "might" make the house more if you sell it (unless of course, you're planning on selling the house in the very near future).
 

seasink

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I was trying to make a point about amortisation for oldies. If the new system has a payback of 20 years and you probably have only 10 to go the annual cost to you is greater. It is silly to calculate longer because nobody gets the value.

You can still improve comfort, but things that a younger person would rule out may actually be reasonable for you.
 

Russell Hall

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All very subjective. Different people like different levels and methods of heating and cooling relative to others. What is desirable for one is bleak for another. Fortunately we are not citizens of the EU being told what is an allowable level of warmth and what is not.
 

Kenfuego

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All very subjective. Different people like different levels and methods of heating and cooling relative to others. What is desirable for one is bleak for another. Fortunately we are not citizens of the EU being told what is an allowable level of warmth and what is not.
I think we are being lead by the nose in a direction we may not want to take, just most of us that have seen fads come and go are a bit resistant or stubborn and looking to take whatever advantage and opportunity that suits us.
Ken
 

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I'll try and set up a sketch plan, it is of course North of the GDR located at Echuca, so can get a bit Humid on some hot summer days but so far (touch wood) above the present flood levels. The orientation of the house provides morning sunshine to the front of the house and uninterrupted sunshine to the roof all day and also setting sun to the rear of the roof as the sun progresses East to West. House is brick veneer with walls insulated.

All heating and cooling is centrally controlled from one single point, and it presently allows for programming several zones to either exclude or include the zones for best economic operation. The new system will I believe use the same central controller. Roof is heavy tiles and well insulated, but will check that, as this progresses. Easy to add insulation if an extra layer is needed.

At present the whole cost is supply charges, rather than actual energy use charges. With the restricted times we could access the home during the State Lockdowns and when those ceased the number of things like medical appointments that kept us in Melbourne. Generally speaking gas had the lower supply charge and electricity has the higher supply charges. That of course may change in the future.

My daughter in Tassie was a bit worried about whether a pure reverse cycle heating would be enough during winter. But that could be attended to with an electric heater, or even the Seasink suggestion of the Aldi mains electric throws or electric blankets, which are very economical to operate. Otherwise, I could open up the unused/unfinished chimney and fit an efficient wood burning heater. So that contingency is available and plenty of wood available in the rural surrounds of Echuca. Thanks for the input.

Ken
Considered far IR panels as Whippet suggested?
 

Whippet

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Considered far IR panels as Whippet suggested?
Hi.

I don't have any far infra red (FIR) panels installed, as I don't need them currently; but I do keep reading positive reports from those that do have them. The major benifet of FIR panels is they use radient heat, which according the research the human body has lots of receptors for this waveform.

The benifet of FIR is that they heat objects and not roomfulls of air, and conseqently consume less energy.

Cheers.
 
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