GiSelle, the continuing story......

pottsy

Citroen Loony & BMC Nutter.
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Since I last wrote about the chic lady, a few things have come to light. During her "maiden" voyage around the high country I found that the steering seemed a little vague at times. She also began to "smoke up" from a cold start fairly consistently. Finally the synchro mesh on third gear is kinda tired.

The vagueness of the steering has been solved, but at a cost.

I'm not sure what drugs I must have been on when setting up the Toe originally, but after observing that the 1000km or so she's traveled so far on the new tyres have caused severe wear I addressed the problem again. Both front tyres are now bald for the first 30 odd mm of tread from the inside. Classic "excessive toe-out" wear pattern. Sure enough, on carefully checking with the adjustable gauge I made about 3o years go, we had a massive 12 to 15mm of toe-out! I can only assume that when I set it up originally, the gauge must have slipped a bit. (Or I was drunk, tired or spaced out!)

She's now set to the proper 1-3 mm to-in and drives beautifully. The down side Is I now have to replace the front tyres! Bugger!

As for the smoking, well, she is a Child of the Seventies, but such behaviour is a bit unacceptable these days.

I bit the bullet and did a cold compression check. All four cylinders came up at a consistent-ish 115 plus psi (Old Skool), so I'm choosing to assume the rings are sealing fine. I may get around to doing a hot test, but it's a bit of a Faff and won't necessarily tell me more.

The motor revs like a turbine when tacking the steep twisty bits that abound where we've been together so far, so I also assume the bottom end is healthy.

Since I had my spare pair of heads reconditioned with new valve, guides and stem seals, I'm fairly confident that putting them on the existing motor will solve the smoky issues.

And here-in lies my second bit of self punishment. When stripping the heads before taking them to the Doctor, I was fairly scrupulous at keeping all the parts from each head together as a group. Having got the heads back all squeaky clean and reconditioned, I started earlier this week to reassemble them. Working with the factory manual beside the bench is a huge help.

So, sorted out the right ways for the camshafts. After clarifying that Right and Left in the manual refer to facing out the windscreen, and not looking into the engine bay! :) I also sorted out the correct location for the rocker shafts. Laid out the seals and washers from the new kit. All good.

Then I started wondering where the rocker shaft springs were. After searching high and low, uttering a few rude words etc, I had the bright thought that I may have put them in to the crate with the heads etc for re-conditioning. Yep, sure enough, there they were, neatly fitted inside the main valve springs!

Slap on forehead time. I'd assumed double valve springs so sent them off to Rob. Should have taken photos like I usually do. A careful measuring of them after removing them one at a time, and not even losing any collets, (!) showed me that they are very similar in size to the inner springs used on the cars up to 1972, but the motor they came off is a 74 or thereabouts, so they must be the rocker shaft location springs after all!

So even after all these years I can still make some stupid blues. It demonstrates that I should measure several times before driving, and should also take lots of free digital photographs when disassembling!

So soon GiSelle will go up on the hoist and have her motor carefully removed. Once on the bench I'll replace both heads with the newly prepared ones. I'll also fit the new clutch kit and engine mounts that are waiting in the wings, as well as anything else that springs to mind. (Such as painting the shrouds perhaps).

The gearbox issue can wait until I explore the two spare gearboxes I have. I'm told one was noisy and weak in the synchros, but the other is a complete unknown. Time will tell on that, but in the meantime, my double clutching skills are still strong!

So can anyone suggest anything else I should address while the motor is out? Exhaust will get a tidy and tighten and the oil cooler has already been cleaned out. Ignition is still standard Ducellier (normal type!) points and seems to be spot on. I've set rocker clearances on the bench at 8 thou give or take a poofteenth, so I'm hoping they'll be right.

More news, and possibly some pretty pictures, as they come to hand.

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
It will be interesting to see what difference the new heads make to the compression. Let us know. New vss should alleviate the smoky start.
Obviously, when you remove the old heads, you will get a clear idea of the cylinder and ring wear. As you say, all should be good.
Would it be worth ordering new synchros (etc) now to avoid a visit from Mr Murphy later?
(waiting for pix)👍
 
Pottsy,

They all smoked on startup when new, even the Pallases. There are a couple of reasons
a) the oil runs down to the bottom of the bores after turn off and the pistons that are at the bottom of their stroke push this oil up into the combustion chamber during startup - so that gives a big blast of blue smoke,
b) These engines have pressure fed oil supply to the exhaust valve guides so the leakage there adds some oil into the exhaust system that gently burns off as the head and exhaust manifold warm up after start up.

So just learn to live with a little bit of start-up smoke like we all did when we bought them new back in the 1970s.

It is a pity Citroen dropped the compression so much in the 1220 compared to the higher compression of the 1015. I think the 1220s must just be waiting for the turbo option.

Cheers, Ken
 
Are your new engine mounts NOS?
I bought a pair off Daniel a couple of years ago, and they lasted only a few months..... rubber was not rubbery.

My recommendation is not to use NOS for rubber stuff.

With nothing else available, I found some industrial machine mounts (I think they are called bell mounts), and disassembled old broken mounts for the mount plates........
And now have really good mounts that
Fit using the original bolts
Sit at the right height
Have good rubberiness
Seem to give the correct amount of wobble to the engine
Seem to survive my rather rough treatment.

I didn't take any pics when I did it, but will be lifting the engine soon to revise my front subframe....
And can send pics then.
 
It has been recommended to me to use diesel grade oil in the 1220 as whatever is in the oil is much kinder to the rockers and cams. Same 10-40 or whatever but diesel stuff.
 
Thanks chaps.

Bob, the mounts I have were in fact listed as NOS, but the rubber in them seems quite supple. The ones currently in there aren't bad as far as I can tell, but since the donk will be out I always like to change them anyway. I'll do a comparison one the whirly bits leave the engine bay.

The smoke issue is inconsistent. Sometimes from a cold start the pall is not too bad, other times appalling ( :) ) However, today, I moved the car out of the carport to gain shaded access for a game of snakes and ladders with two of the Grandies and it was not too bad. On returning the car to the carport the smoke blotted out the sun almost! Car was stinking hot having sat in the sun most of the day. A couple of weeks back when I started it in the driveway, the bloke over the road was all set to come running with a fire extinguisher thinking the house was ablaze!

I accept that this can be a problem with horizontally opposed engines but I'm also pinning some hope on the new stem seals and guides to at least minimise it.

As for oil, the engine is on it's second sumpful of Penrite HPR30 since I fired her up. It will be interesting to see the condition of the top end once the heads come off. The cam lobes and rockers in the reconditioned spare heads are unmarked as far as I can tell. As an aside, the lobes are the widest I think I've ever seen on a camshaft.

Oh, and Dave M, I have what appears to be a relatively unworn set of 3rd/4th synchro rings and associated gears. Apparently the availability of GS synchro rings is somewhere between rocking horse shit and hen's teeth!

Cheers, Pottsy
 
Thanks chaps.

Bob, the mounts I have were in fact listed as NOS, but the rubber in them seems quite supple. The ones currently in there aren't bad as far as I can tell, but since the donk will be out I always like to change them anyway. I'll do a comparison one the whirly bits leave the engine bay.

The smoke issue is inconsistent. Sometimes from a cold start the pall is not too bad, other times appalling ( :) ) However, today, I moved the car out of the carport to gain shaded access for a game of snakes and ladders with two of the Grandies and it was not too bad. On returning the car to the carport the smoke blotted out the sun almost! Car was stinking hot having sat in the sun most of the day. A couple of weeks back when I started it in the driveway, the bloke over the road was all set to come running with a fire extinguisher thinking the house was ablaze!

I accept that this can be a problem with horizontally opposed engines but I'm also pinning some hope on the new stem seals and guides to at least minimise it.

As for oil, the engine is on it's second sumpful of Penrite HPR30 since I fired her up. It will be interesting to see the condition of the top end once the heads come off. The cam lobes and rockers in the reconditioned spare heads are unmarked as far as I can tell. As an aside, the lobes are the widest I think I've ever seen on a camshaft.

Oh, and Dave M, I have what appears to be a relatively unworn set of 3rd/4th synchro rings and associated gears. Apparently the availability of GS synchro rings is somewhere between rocking horse shit and hen's teeth!

Cheers, Pottsy
Do they have energiser springs in the synchro hubs? Opinions vary but I reckon that they break in the end. So, not just the synchro rings to check.
 
Oh dear Pottsy,

I have been waiting to see if our GS gearbox goes the same way. GS and CX gearboxes have steel synchro rings and if the box is used constantly and oil changed regularly, they last a very long time (maybe not forever but it seems like that). However, when they have been left idle in a high humidity environment and you put them back in service, synchros can strip out quite quickly.

I bought a CX 2200 Super Wagon 1976 that had been sitting for a few years. I managed to get it going, fix it up enough to get a safety certificate followed by registration and over the first few weeks of driving it around, 2nd and 3rd gear synchros failed. No worries I thought, I will put a 4 speed box I had saved from a CX 2200 sedan I had wrecked a few years ago that was OK. A few weeks later, the 3rd synchro went on that. I managed to take the casing off the gearbox in the car and replace the 3rd synchro ring despite being told that it would strip out too. With careful use (lots of 2nd to 4th changeups), it lasted 6 months. After that I decided to upgrade to a 5 speed box with new driveshafts etc.

The general thought is that the surface treatment on the synchro cone beside the gear corrodes during disuse or with humidity in the gearbox and gets overly rough and then it strips the synchro ring. The only way to remedy this is apparently to have the cone surface beside the gear built up by welding and then re-machined down to standard specifications.

I remember Shane saying he had never had this happen on a C-matic box and the thought was that maybe Fluid T was a safer gearbox oil to use.

Sorry to be the bearer of possibly bad news.

Ken
 
Do they have energiser springs in the synchro hubs? Opinions vary but I reckon that they break in the end. So, not just the synchro rings to check.
There are "retarding dowels" which fit inside the mainshaft and bear on the inside of the synchro pinions. The may, I presume, have a similar effect. (Perhaps not. Do the energiser springs lighly pre-engage the baulk ring? [Or do they keep the Energiser Bunny alive between battery changes! :) } )

As I understand baulk ring synchro, as long as the conical part of the pinion matches the shape of the baulk ring, and there's (say) 50 thou or so clearance between the leading edge of the ring and the pinion, then the thrust of the synchro selector towards the pinion should allow the baulk ring to match the dog speeds and mesh cleanly. I'm guessing the retarder dowels allow the gear to slow a tad to facilitate this.

The conical surface of the synchro pinion is the thing in question in my mind. If this has deteriorated then even a perfect baulk ring will not have enough friction to match the speeds before the dog teeth meet. Certainly something I'll be checking carefully, but until I've done some dismantling down the track I have no basis for comparison.

The diagrams on page 177 or thereabouts in manual 810-2 are very helpful, if a little confusing until I have the units in my hand.

And Bob, it's far more than my left leg that could use the exercise! :)

Cheers, Pottsy
 
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Smoke:
I recall HUGE clouds of smoke being normal on start up for GSs.
It certainly was mentioned in a couple of road tests at the time. It was years ago I read this, so won't be accurate, but there was mention of having to wait for the smoke to clear before taking off, or similar. I also recall reading that this bit of extra lube at start up may have been responsible for the engines having a long life - the article referred to an engine having to be dismantled with 10,000 km under its belt and still showing honing marks in the cylinder from when it was made. (no bore wear.)
My GS when I bought it used to smoke horribly whenever it was NOT under load, stopped at the lights it was embarrassing and people would stare at the car. Car had been recently purchased from a Cit specialist used car lot in Melbourne's Southern suburbs, dealer was a crook and refused to do anything about it. Shortly afterwards, the timing belts broke, Citro Motors were great and fitted a good used engine from their stockpile, and only charged me what I could afford (impoverished uni student...) Replacement engine was great but still gave a huge cloud of smoke for the first start every morning.
 
As I understand it, the rings can rotate & gaps line up at the bottom if not pinned. I had this done to mine plus motor bike valve guides & stem seals fitted, which solved the massive start up smoke for awhile. I presumed that the seals had been chopped out because the installer wasn't sure at the time of the correct guide height. It didn't help that I worked in Katoomba at the time & parked in the main street at a very steep angle. Needless to say the car would disappear in an embarrassing smoke cloud on start up. Wrote the car off not long after the motor work, so don't know if a successful solution was found .
Richard
 
CX's ... it seemed to be the running area on the syncrho that worn down (so eventually you would fit new synchro rings.... and they'll only last a few weeks). The C-matic is the identical box internally. Yes its synchros seem to last forrever. therefore.... use Total T or whatever the equivelant is these days in the 4spd manual if you by some miracle find one with working synchros. I used to pull down a C-matic to seal the unworn gears and synchros from!

certainly I'd try nulon g70 in the gs gearbox before anything else.
 
Greetings Fellow Travellers. It seems an age since I responded here, so brace yourself for an Update.

Since last discussions were held, I've masticated the projectile and removed the whirly bit from the drivy thing. GiSelle's heart is now decapitated and in the process of being cleaned and having some new bits added.

First up was an inspection of the bores once the heads were off. Hone marks are still in evidence and when I removed one of the rings from a piston to check the gap, it was within the specified amount (<0.3mm) at top and bottom of the bore. I choose, therefore, to believe that the cylinders are quite usable so I don't plan to disturb them any further. Time will tell if this is wise.

The front and rear crankshaft seals appear to be the originals and there was a slight sign of weeping at the base of both. New ones arrived from Daniel Engelhardt this week so they're now fitted.

Oil pump was removed and cleaned. All surfaces are shiny and unmarked. New o-ring fitted and back she goes.

The breather assembly under No 2 showed signs of leakage, and I had to take it off to get the shrouds off anyway. Clean and new seal there as well.

I spent some time at my Son's workshop sand blasting all the shrouds. I take my hat off to the twisted genius who created this assembly. Obviously someone who thinks differently to the rest of us. Anyway, they're now all primed and painted in a nice gloss epoxy black.

The exhaust manifolds have had a birthday as well. They're now painted in an eye searing high temperature orange, so they'll look like the car has been working hard all the time!

The new clutch is fitted. I created a centring tool from a bit of brass turned down to suit, and discovered that 1/2" copper water pipe fits snugly inside the spline as well. The new engine mounts are also fitted and ready.

Some more cleaning then it's time to fit the new heads. Wish me luck!

Cheers, Pottsy.

(Oh, and Shane, gearbox is already running VMX80 and Nulon G70) Breather seal.jpgCrank seal Front fitted.jpgNew oil pump seal.jpgCrank seal Front.jpgClutch centered.jpgCrank seal rear.jpgShrouds painted.jpgEye searing.jpg
 
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Hi Pottsy. Looks like you are coming along well . Sounds like the bores are straight . Don't forget to put the air ducts for the brakes back in before you put the heads on . They wont go in once the heads are on. You can guess how I know, can't you? Cheers Ian
 
Heh heh. Thanks Ian, I discovered that this afternoon and I probably found out the same way you did!

Mind you, the first time I started to put a head on I was just about to pat myself on the back when I started wondering why the camshaft pulley was next to the flywheel! Doh!

One head is now on, other one tomorrow with a fresh start. It's going to look pretty with the black shrouding I hope.

Cheers, Pottsy
 
One head is now on, other one tomorrow with a fresh start. It's going to look pretty with the black shrouding I hope.

Cheers, Pottsy
They do look much better with nicely painted black shrouding
 
Good stuff, the crank seals are a source of consternation, whether to replace or not, I was advised to DO them and haven't. Since I put my motor back together I've noticed the oil pump o ring is weeping. Another order on the horizon...
And don't forget to retension the head bolts after 1000km per manual details!
 
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