General comments on Timing belt failure I have seen.

jaahn

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Hi:) as there has been a discussion about a timing belt change and problems in the Renault forums currently I though I would give some of my timing belt observations from previous years.

I spent a couple of years 20 years ago on a largish Pacific island, in Micronesia, at a trade school. The normal island vehicles were mostly Japanese imports, not so old, that were probably the cheap end from the Jap auctions, or American cars privately imported. No French cars and no other Europeans either :confused: It is fair to say the Jap imports never had an oil change in Japan before being auctioned and usually none after coming to the island. I tried to change that culture ? The distance they drove on the island was not great but some minibuses and utes used commercially did run up highish Kms. The climate is tropical and wet, close to the sea, and the roads were mostly dirt and poor. But speeds were low with a 40MPH limit. Try that you speed hogs !

The result of not changing the oils at all and the harsh conditions resulted in the oil becoming thick, blocking the oil passages and not very lubricating, so the cams started to wear into the head alloy and resulting in extreme wear I had never seen before. The tappets would be rattling. That also meant the oils seals started to leak and oil contaminating the belts. The obvious result of these factors meant that at some time the owner stops at a 'trade store' and when restarting the weakened belt teeth strip at the crankshaft sprocket and the sh*t hits the fan so as to say. "But is was going OK just before I stopped" was said to me more than once. :confused: In those days most engines had dissys so I found the easiest first check was to pull the dissy cap and check if the rotor was turning. HMMM Bad news usually. I must admit I had little experience of this type of problem before this.

There were no car dealers on the island and only one American linked parts shop so replacement parts were hard to get, particularly for Jap cars, and the usual fix was to get the owner to find a suitable dead vehicle somewhere and come back with parts. ?? There were plenty of dead vehicles parked around. When I came home for a holiday I bought up a selection of common parts here, like brushes, brake rubbers, pads, bushes, etc for our vehicles and for student work. Most dealers here refused point blank to supply parts for VINs that were not Australian supplied. Hmm. I had to go around to car yards and find similar models and 'steal' the VIN. :oops:

Anyway the point of my story is to say that oil changes are important, the thick oil blocks the galleries, and the engine wear may be extreme in a different way to what you would expect. And the end result was usually a timing belt failure mostly because a belt weakened by oil leaks has trouble turning the dry cam in the head bearing saddles :mad: I never thought of that !!
Jaahn
 
Jaahn, I know where you are coming from.
I bought a brand new Mitsubishi L300 8-seater in 1983. 1.6 litre Single OHC. Correctly maintained, it had a premature cam belt failure at around 40k KMs, quickly diagnosed as a seized camshaft. 5 cam bearings running in the head alloy (no bearing shells, hmmm design). The centre cam bearing was seized, the others were perfect, like mirror finish. Possibly due to a bit of crap in the oil as the bearing had a buildup of melted alloy all around in line with the oil hole. Correspondingly, the camshaft journal had a shallow groove worn around it, 5-6mm wide.
Looked closely, the edges of that bearing in the head were like original, just the centre line had picked up, same for cam journal, just a groove in the centre. OK, out with the small scraper (remember those?) and scraped off the buildup around the bearing and cap, leaving the edges original, so reducing the bearing area by about 25% I suppose, used bearing blue and feeler gauge, got good clearance, and checked all other cam bearings for clearance, all good. Ran like a 2 Bob watch, new belt of course. Alternative was new head and camshaft, $$$$$, out of the question.

Fast forward another 20k KMs. Bad noise, belt jumping teeth, cam seized again. OK, so my backyard engineering has let me down. But wait, on inspection, the bearing I had scraped was perfect, both the 2nd and 4th bearings were now seizing, not as bad as before and cleaned up ok, but the camshaft looking a bit dodgy now, so a new one fitted. I had to scrape material from the head bearings, it was as though the head metal had "grown", reducing the clearance, then seizing. (I still believe it was something silly like that). At same time carried out Service Bulletin increasing dia of oil feed port to camshaft, so I guess there had been a few problems in this area. Once again, all looked and ran well.

So why not drive to the Adelaide F1GP in 1987 soon after this job? Perth - Adelaide, 1700 KMs - all good. Adelaide - Perth, didn't make it. About 1000kms, nearly to Norseman, heard screeching, stopped, and it was cactus. Got towed to Norseman, had a good look (had all the tools, including the scraper and new belt) and this time the main front cam bearing was seized, heat damage on camshaft, no.1 rockers cracked.
But here's the amazing bit - the fairly new timing belt had not broken, it had broken the cam pulley bolt and dowel - so that belt was strong. And that is the point of this long story, just how strong those belts are. Besides that and the MitsI engine being a piece of junk.
Towed back to Perth. Head and camshaft now U/S. But I did find a piece of crap blocking the small oil feed hole to the cam. Maybe a piece of gasket or something had been floating around, I don't know. A mate bought it off me and put on a second hand head, good riddance.
Long story, but thought you might get a laugh, Jaahn, and others.
 
Jaahn, I know where you are coming from.
I bought a brand new Mitsubishi L300 8-seater in 1983. 1.6 litre Single OHC. Correctly maintained, it had a premature cam belt failure at around 40k KMs, quickly diagnosed as a seized camshaft. 5 cam bearings running in the head alloy (no bearing shells, hmmm design). The centre cam bearing was seized, the others were perfect, like mirror finish. Possibly due to a bit of crap in the oil as the bearing had a buildup of melted alloy all around in line with the oil hole. Correspondingly, the camshaft journal had a shallow groove worn around it, 5-6mm wide.
Looked closely, the edges of that bearing in the head were like original, just the centre line had picked up, same for cam journal, just a groove in the centre. OK, out with the small scraper (remember those?) and scraped off the buildup around the bearing and cap, leaving the edges original, so reducing the bearing area by about 25% I suppose, used bearing blue and feeler gauge, got good clearance, and checked all other cam bearings for clearance, all good. Ran like a 2 Bob watch, new belt of course. Alternative was new head and camshaft, $$$$$, out of the question.

Fast forward another 20k KMs. Bad noise, belt jumping teeth, cam seized again. OK, so my backyard engineering has let me down. But wait, on inspection, the bearing I had scraped was perfect, both the 2nd and 4th bearings were now seizing, not as bad as before and cleaned up ok, but the camshaft looking a bit dodgy now, so a new one fitted. I had to scrape material from the head bearings, it was as though the head metal had "grown", reducing the clearance, then seizing. (I still believe it was something silly like that). At same time carried out Service Bulletin increasing dia of oil feed port to camshaft, so I guess there had been a few problems in this area. Once again, all looked and ran well.

So why not drive to the Adelaide F1GP in 1987 soon after this job? Perth - Adelaide, 1700 KMs - all good. Adelaide - Perth, didn't make it. About 1000kms, nearly to Norseman, heard screeching, stopped, and it was cactus. Got towed to Norseman, had a good look (had all the tools, including the scraper and new belt) and this time the main front cam bearing was seized, heat damage on camshaft, no.1 rockers cracked.
But here's the amazing bit - the fairly new timing belt had not broken, it had broken the cam pulley bolt and dowel - so that belt was strong. And that is the point of this long story, just how strong those belts are. Besides that and the MitsI engine being a piece of junk.
Towed back to Perth. Head and camshaft now U/S. But I did find a piece of crap blocking the small oil feed hole to the cam. Maybe a piece of gasket or something had been floating around, I don't know. A mate bought it off me and put on a second hand head, good riddance.
Long story, but thought you might get a laugh, Jaahn, and others.
Wow. 2700 km btw - just did it in the Scenic with the 4CV on the trailer. Something fundamentally wrong with that camshaft design or the oil passages/flow, so you'd expect many of those engines to have failed. Maybe yours was a dud casting?
 
Wow. 2700 km btw - just did it in the Scenic with the 4CV on the trailer. Something fundamentally wrong with that camshaft design or the oil passages/flow, so you'd expect many of those engines to have failed. Maybe yours was a dud casting?
Of course 2700 to Adelaide, and got 2000 KMs back nearly to Norseman.
Yes, it was not a good engine for me.
 
Of course 2700 to Adelaide, and got 2000 KMs back nearly to Norseman.
Yes, it was not a good engine for me.
Very odd failures I reckon. But you said that! With the first failure, I wondered whether you inherited poor maintenance problems but then when the other camshaft bearing failures occurred......
 
Hi Fordman :)
Thanks for that interesting story. Sad but true I guess. Those engines did not have a bad reputation as far as i know, so possibly just a random failure caused most likely by a floating blockage in the oil supply I might guess. History now and you might like to forget the drama it caused you at the time. :rolleyes:
I do remember small scrapers, yes, and use them occasionally. It does sound like you did what seemed a good cure at the time.
Hmm ! Possibly even a crap alloy batch for the cast head. It is now usual to run the cams direct in the alloy head with no bearing inserts as the alloy is normally a good material for that. Some motorbikes used alloy conrods with out slippers for many (70+)years with no problems as do industrial small engines and lawn mowers.;)
Jaahn
 
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Hi Fordman :)
Thanks for that interesting story. Sad but true I guess. Those engines did not have a bad reputation as far as i know, so possibly just a random failure caused most likely by a floating blockage in the oil supply I might guess. History now and you might like to forget the drama it caused you at the time. :rolleyes:
I do remember small scrapers, yes, and use them occasionally. It does sound like you did what seemed a good cure at the time.
Hmm ! Possibly even a crap alloy batch for the cast head. It is now usual to run the cams direct in the alloy head with no bearing inserts as the alloy is normally a good material for that. Some motorbikes used alloy conrods with out slippers for many (70+)years with no problems as do industrial small engines and lawn mowers.;)
Jaahn
Honda 90 step-throughs for example. The conrods that is.
 
my son bought an old Hyundi as a non runner the key in the gam belt pulley has sheered ,the oil filter about the size of half a coke can had never been changed and i guess the same with the oil, the cam was seized in the head i removed it put the cap back on the offending bearing and used a brake cylinder hone to clean it out ,and the cam shaft with some wet and dry paper ,changed the filter and filled it up with cheep super market oil till it just showed on the stick ,then put half a bottle of oil flush in and it started sounded like a diesel
,valve lifters ,dropped the oil filled up again ,rest of oil flush ,ran till noise stopped ,changed oil and filter with some good stuff ,must clearance engine no ,bent valves then it ran just fine ,iv seen a few scenics in wreckers failed cam belt as the accessory belt has broken smashing up the plastic cam belt cover and dumping bits down on the crank pulley causing it to jump teeth ,repair not a viable proposition
 
Hand scraping of course (if done correctly) creates pockets for the oil to remain on the surface, whereas the nice superfinish maintains only a finite amount of oil that is constantly being wiped from the journal and depending upon the materials the introduction of just a small amount of grit or carbon in the oil can embed and cause excess or terminal failure, that could of course be tracked back to the type of filter fitted and the replacement cycle of oil and filters.

Quite interesting and on the old Toyota crown the camshaft and the rockers were steel surface to steel surface and under quite a bit of lubrication stress. One of the things Toyota tried was to fit phospher bronze self lubricating bearings to improve wear, between the rocker cams and shaft and it did improve wear!:eek: The rockers ground large grooves in the parallel rocker shaft as sharp material in the lubrication system loaded up in the bronze bearings and they lapped into the steel.

Didn't take long either and I had to go back to Toyota and buy new parts, but this time, back to the steel on steel old configuration, the engineers told me that it was their mistake and I got the parts almost free, to fit myself. The 1968 Crown was my first brand new vehicle and it didn't get much work done on it till the 70,000 plus miles mark, crank shaft was perfect, no taper no ovality and I refitted standard replacement bearings.

At the same time I decided to do the camshaft with the nice new bronze bearings, though I can't remember now why. :blackeye:

The only other bad thing was replacing the pawl that electro mechanically pulled out and in on the transmission, to bring in or throw out the overdrive.

The new pawl they supplied cracked in service as they had been incorrectly heat treated. I tried two new sets and both cracked less than a week, and one immediately when fitted. When I complained, they admitted the brittleness problem and gave me a couple of sets gratis. I still had to fit the replacement myself though. I found the second one recently while cleaning out the garage, it was never needed.

Ken
 
I think one of the problems of running camshafts directly in the head is improper design of oil feed holes and passages. I still do not understand the logic behind having bearings with no oil groove in some cars even in the main crank bearings and big ends. Oil has to fight to lubricate the bearings and spreading out from one port into the entire area around the bearing is not ideal in my opinion. Sometimes there are two holes in the journal so at least you have more opportunity for the oil to come out (twice every revolution instead of once) but (again in my opinion) you need at least one bearing shell with a groove to create a sort of local plenum to supply the oil continuously (one oiling port is open for 180 degrees and as this one reaches the end of the groove the other one comes around at the other end). Seems more efficient.

I guess there are cost savings associated with not going to the trouble to drill two holes instead of one across the mains and big ends and manufacturing plain bearing shells instead of grooved but if you want to do that, you better get the rest of the design spot on (alloys, clearances, passage length, design, oil pressure, volume, grade, etc.). Kinda makes you think when a particular oil is specified in the manual, there may be a reason for it.

Uncle Tony (of Uncle Tony's Garage - YT has a video about these things. Very interesting to see different designs and how they are used).
 
Well I think we underestimate the power of oil to stick on. In other machines the lube system is much simpler and often just a splash system that just sprays a bit around or a dipper that splashes some around. Industrial gear boxes just use the gears to pick some oil up and it just runs off onto the important bits. These go for year after year after year without any problems or oil changes. :censored: Modest power usually but sometimes more than that.

Big ship diesel engines use more conservative design factors for the bearing sizes that do not need such expensive hightech oil. That oil is never changed but does get centrifuged to remove rubbish and the additives replenished. These engines just keep going for years and regular maintainance and replacement means they last "forever". What are we doing wrong with car engines ?? :cautious:

I worked on a ship for a while and the diesel generators, 180HP each, with exposed tappets on the 4 valve heads, had instructions to manually lube the valve tips/rockers twice a shift with an oil can. They were 40+ year old then and all working OK. :oops:
Jaahn
 
We wrinklies can remember the drivers of steam locos getting out and filling the oil containers mounted on the connecting rod bearings. The C38 has a box full of oil mounted on the running board, to be periodically topped up. These engines allowed lubricants to drop away as the train progressed.
 
Compare oil change intervals from the sixties with those recommended now. My 2008 diesel Koleos is 35,000km or annually, my 1967 R10 was 8,000 km. The R10 would eventually need an oil top up between changes, the Koleos never.
 
Compare oil change intervals from the sixties with those recommended now. My 2008 diesel Koleos is 35,000km or annually, my 1967 R10 was 8,000 km. The R10 would eventually need an oil top up between changes, the Koleos never.
Oil technology has improved vastly over the last 50 years.

There is also a vast difference in quality of oils on the market. I found this out way back in the 80's. I was using Ampol oil in the engine of my R12 then. The ex misses won a container of Valvoline engine oil so thought I would give it a go in the R12. I noticed that I did not have to top up the engine oil between oil changes with the Valvoline where as with the Ampol I was topping up the engine oil between changes.

I have been using Valvoline oil in the engine of my R12's since then.
 
Compare oil change intervals from the sixties with those recommended now. My 2008 diesel Koleos is 35,000km or annually, my 1967 R10 was 8,000 km. The R10 would eventually need an oil top up between changes, the Koleos never.
Hi Kim:)
Well I also believe the much cleaner burning of modern engines has a great effect on oil life now. Along with better control of the start cycle mixture and engine temperature.
The Europeans have worked hard to reduce the waste and potential pollution of un-necessary changing and disposal of car fluids, whereas before it was encouraged by the car industry to bring paying customers to the workshop regularly. ;) This certainly has driven the long life organic coolants replacing the old toxic green stuff.
Jaahn
 
I just changed the cambelt on the C2 here ... it's probably 10years old ... but looks perfectly fine for continued service. How could anyone ever possibly know with these thing :) .... The timing belts if used should be swinging out in the breeze, so the merest glance at them at oil change time will allow you to see how they are ageing :)

I prefer the old coolants ... you tend to be topping up/wasting/leaking the stuff all the time on old cars .... an those modern OAT coolants are expensive!
 
New vehicles now tell you how much life is left in the oil depending upon how you have beed driving..
Towing, traffic light drags, cold starts, etc, etc, etc.
 
New vehicles now tell you how much life is left in the oil depending upon how you have beed driving..
Towing, traffic light drags, cold starts, etc, etc, etc.

The most modern car I've ever owned is the shitbox range rover .... before that the CX :) They are plenty modern enough for me!!
 
I have also had a Rangie.
Undo sump plug, drain oil, replace plug
Pour oil back into filler strained through double layer stocking.
Repeat every 10,000km easy and reliable and cheap
 
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