Both Peugeot and Renault have been charged by French courts with consumer fraud over the exhaust emission levels of their diesel engined vehicles made before 2015. It is alleged exhaust emissions were up to ten times allowable levels. The cases are continuing.
French Makers Charged with Emissions Fraud
- Thread starter Russell Hall
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Everyone knows that the testbed results for fuel economy and emissions are nothing like real life figures. There doesn't need to be any cheating for the results to not add up!
It's Euro Five engines made between 2009 and 2015. Peugeot has had to lodge 30 million euros with the court for potential compensation payments. Citroen and FIAT have been summoned and Reuters says a similar prosecution has been started against Renault without giving details.
I wouldn't get too excited about this. This is the EU, centre of pointless bureaucracy that often has unexpected outcomes. You wouldn't be able to fit their voluminous exhaust emission regulations into the back of an R4. Rather than the citizens of the EU expiring in choking clouds of nitrous oxide it's far more likely to be a technical breach of poorly thought out and mechanically impossible regulations. The car companies do their best to comply with them. I take a more favorable view of the technical staff of Renault and Peugeot than the apparatchiks of Brussels. We shall see.
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Lawyers with an eye for a quid are currently enrolling Peugeot owners for a potential class action. (eg Excello Law, Harcus Parker) VW owners in USA are said to have received over $5000.
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Only $5000? You'd have to pay me a lot more than that to drive a VW!
The emission laws and the means of "meeting" them have been very dodgy since the 70s.
Remember when emissions standards were simply ppm. So the manufacturers pumped air into the exhaust to dilute it.
Then we had charcoal canisters that would absorb hydrocarbons while the car was new, but after a few months it was all saturated. But only new cars were tested.
Wherever theres a a loophole they will crawl through it. Although VW got caught, all the others knew there was no way for a diesel to meet the intention of the law. The wriggle room is in the exact wording of the regulations.
Remember when emissions standards were simply ppm. So the manufacturers pumped air into the exhaust to dilute it.
Then we had charcoal canisters that would absorb hydrocarbons while the car was new, but after a few months it was all saturated. But only new cars were tested.
Wherever theres a a loophole they will crawl through it. Although VW got caught, all the others knew there was no way for a diesel to meet the intention of the law. The wriggle room is in the exact wording of the regulations.
Stelantis response is their cars met all relevant standards applicable at the time and they look forward to demonstrating that in court.
To be fair, I had always understood that Peugeot developed the FAP with eolys system so that they COULD legitimately meet the regulations.
Many other manufacturers skimped - either DPF with no eolys, or no DPF at all. At the time of Dieselgate, VW had a mix of diesels available, some with DPF but no eolys, others with no DPF. I don't know which of their cars was involved in the scandal. Peugeot's FAP system was the best at the time. When I bought my 307 in 2007, one of the reasons I chose the car was its FAP system.
I do wonder what the emissions were during a regeneration - maybe that is what is being alleged in this latest lawsuit?
Stellantis has said Citroen has also been charged and required to lodge a 30 million euro bond with the court. There are reports Volkswagen is to be charged.
Update: Renault and Volkswagen have been charged. Head of engineering at Renault says we deceived no-one and cheat devices were never fitted to Renaults.
Update: Renault and Volkswagen have been charged. Head of engineering at Renault says we deceived no-one and cheat devices were never fitted to Renaults.
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Hi Buttercup
Gees and people say I am cynical !! But honestly I thought, and think, the French did try to do better, and were interested in doing real things to make diesels workable for the environment ! They developed some treatments that were infront of all the others and the engines developed were used in a lot of cars.
You are not correct about the way air injection worked, and neither about the charcoal canisters. They were a step forward that did work except lots of people did not want them and disabled them on false ideas. Like PCV systems too. But all history now and incorporated into the original designs now for years and work OK. Thank heaven for that too I say
But diesel anti-pollution design 'hit the wall' some time back and it was found it could not be improved much easily. Unlike petrol engines which started years earlier and continue to improve with encouragement from regulations. Except in third world countries like Australia !!
If you ride a motorbike like I do then you will know what cars stink and to avoid even before you know which one in front it is. Gees I would not follow a procession of oldies for fear of my life now. Some newish diesel utes are just as bad. Nissans spring to mind and jacked up modified "chipped" 4WDs can be horrible. Bring in roadside testing I say !!(but not for old Froggies ) Jaahn
Both Stellantis and Renault deny wrongdoing. They maintain their cars conformed to the regulations of the time.
Happily we in Australia do not at present have to deal with such concerns and our diesels continue to provide the basis of our transport and agricultural industries. All diesels sold in Australia conform with relevant Australian regulations. Nobody runs around testing them. Not an Australian issue. Who knows the politics of the French prosecution or who it will profit except the legal profession. How can it be consumer fraud when the cars delivered both economy and performance specified. Never seen a car ad that puts up the exhaust readings as a selling point or know of an owner who pestered his garage for the exhaust readings during a service. As if France didn't have enough problems without seeking to discredit and impoverish their own car industry which struggles against foreign competition. I wonder what the workforce thinks?
Happily we in Australia do not at present have to deal with such concerns and our diesels continue to provide the basis of our transport and agricultural industries. All diesels sold in Australia conform with relevant Australian regulations. Nobody runs around testing them. Not an Australian issue. Who knows the politics of the French prosecution or who it will profit except the legal profession. How can it be consumer fraud when the cars delivered both economy and performance specified. Never seen a car ad that puts up the exhaust readings as a selling point or know of an owner who pestered his garage for the exhaust readings during a service. As if France didn't have enough problems without seeking to discredit and impoverish their own car industry which struggles against foreign competition. I wonder what the workforce thinks?
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Which still allow Euro5 compliant vehicles to be registered although that regulation was superseded in 2015 by Euro 6 emissions standards......as usual, Australia is the dumping ground for anything that can't be sold elsewhere!
Australia has its own regulations that suit our needs. There is no merit in following the regulations of the European Union.
That's a very "Neroesque" statement Russell! We'll just sit here fiddling whilst the rest of the world gets on with emissions reductions. Sounds like a policy......
The Europeans have a regulation for everything. We don't have to sit down to a meal of Euro standard sausages because some Brussels bureaucrat decrees it. You are perfectly welcome to reduce your emissions of any sort you decide. Or eat any sized sausage you fancy.
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