FIX for ELECTRONIC IGNITION KIT that FITS MOST BUT NOT ALL DUCELLIER DISTRIBUTORS:

RINGER

Member
FIX for ELECTRONIC IGNITION KIT that FITS MOST BUT NOT ALL DUCELLIER DISTRIBUTORS:
The model distributors these readily available inexpensive $50-70 kits fit are listed but I'm sure many of the distributors will need some modification.

For vacuum-advance Ducellier 4-cylinder distributors with 2-piece, right-pivoting points only….Distributor inside diameter must be 59mm (2.32 inches)

Citroën
1965-66 4-cyl ID19 80cv 4944, 4175 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-67 4-cyl DS19 90cv 4169, 4177A Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1966-70 4-cyl ID16 90cv 41401, 4188 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-72 4-cyl DS21 109cv 4155 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-72 4-cyl Pallas 105cv 4176 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1933-57 4-cyl Traction Avant 11 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1

DAF
1977-78 4-cyl 1300 Marathon with Ducellier vacuum-advance distributor - 3DUC4U1

Peugeot
1975-79 4-cyl 504 with Ducellier distributor DU-525101A - 3DUC4U1
1957-78 4-cyl All Models Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1969-1974 Peugeot 504 series with 4-cyl Ducellier 161, 292, 300 distributor - 3DUC4U1

Renault
1957-77 4-cyl all models with Ducellier distributor - 3DUC4U1

Simca
1955-71 4-cyl All models Ducellier - 3DUC4U1

Ducellier 4-cylinder Distributors:
A96
B6B
C33
R238D59
R238-D59
R244D61
R244-D61
R251C34
R251-C34
R256C34
R256-C34
R275E3A
R275-E3A
R280C34
R280-C34
R280C52
R280-C52
R296C52
R296-C52
DU-525101A
R250D59 (4267)
R250-D59 (4267)
155
155D
161
169
175
176
177A
188
292
300
944
1401
4155
4155D
4169
4175
4176
4177A
4188
4291B (DY-010A)
4944
6605A
41401
525101A
525187B (R244D61)
525294A

I am no expert on Ducellier distributors except they don't have a split breaker plate like many other distributors so the points are moved relative to the cam, but hey someone who knows more might help further, if needed.
Seems most French vehicles had ignition points that were adjusted internally with some that adjusted dwell/point gap externally.

These kits do not fit the externally adjusted type without modification & frankly I don't see how they fit the internal type without a minor modification. viz...advance cam




Picture 1 shows all the potential problems
Picture 2 & 3 shows the different types of distributor.

The major difference in both these distributors is the breaker plate BUT both types of breaker plate are interchangeable. That is with a little work.


First find a Ducellier distributor without the external adjustment & remove the breaker plate




Remove the point adjuster & breaker plate from the distributor one wants to fit the EI to.
Replace this breaker plate with the one from the donor distributor. Fit the EI components.





This new the replacement breaker plate with EI parts will fit easily but one of the distributor cap clamps breaker plate holes won’t line up.
Carefully drill & elongate the distributor housing hole meant for this purpose. Use a clamp & screw from the donor distributor in the last breaker plate hole. purpose Make a small cover plate & with a gasket or silicone & fit to keep out dust





The only other thing I did was was remove a part of the vacuum advance adjusting cam as it interfered with the black reluctor. Most cams seem to be set on about the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] tooth so removing the upper end teeth should not affect anything.
Added edit: It may be possible to reverse the cam & avoid removing teeth....I'm not sure?
I decided against this route as most elec shops don't have sun testers anymore & I decided to keep the same cam setting & spring tension on the vacuum diaphragm on the 4th tooth, as this distributor had originally.








Re-establish correct timing. I use a vacuum gauge. Block off the vacuum advance & plug gauge into any port under the carburettor into full manifold vacuum.
@ idle, advance the distributor to get the best highest reading. Turn back [retard timing] maintaining that highest reading. Now turn back a little more until the reading is 1” of mercury less. e.g. In this case the engine was top @ 19” of mercury & set on 18” & clamped down.
Readings expected & good are in the 17-21” range depending on altitude & engine condition.
Timing should be spot on BUT take on road test & check for pinging [over advanced ignition timing]. Retard until not apparent.
Too far advanced sounds like shaking marbles in a can.

Hope this helps others & feel free to criticize [with appropriate reasoning] if I've missed anything, add to or comment.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
FIX for ELECTRONIC IGNITION KIT that FITS MOST BUT NOT ALL DUCELLIER DISTRIBUTORS:
The model distributors these readily available inexpensive $50-70 kits fit are listed but I'm sure many of the distributors will need some modification.

For vacuum-advance Ducellier 4-cylinder distributors with 2-piece, right-pivoting points only….Distributor inside diameter must be 59mm (2.32 inches)

Citroën
1965-66 4-cyl ID19 80cv 4944, 4175 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-67 4-cyl DS19 90cv 4169, 4177A Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1966-70 4-cyl ID16 90cv 41401, 4188 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-72 4-cyl DS21 109cv 4155 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1965-72 4-cyl Pallas 105cv 4176 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1933-57 4-cyl Traction Avant 11 Ducellier - 3DUC4U1

DAF
1977-78 4-cyl 1300 Marathon with Ducellier vacuum-advance distributor - 3DUC4U1

Peugeot
1975-79 4-cyl 504 with Ducellier distributor DU-525101A - 3DUC4U1
1957-78 4-cyl All Models Ducellier - 3DUC4U1
1969-1974 Peugeot 504 series with 4-cyl Ducellier 161, 292, 300 distributor - 3DUC4U1

Renault
1957-77 4-cyl all models with Ducellier distributor - 3DUC4U1

Simca
1955-71 4-cyl All models Ducellier - 3DUC4U1

Ducellier 4-cylinder Distributors:
A96
B6B
C33
R238D59
R238-D59
R244D61
R244-D61
R251C34
R251-C34
R256C34
R256-C34
R275E3A
R275-E3A
R280C34
R280-C34
R280C52
R280-C52
R296C52
R296-C52
DU-525101A
R250D59 (4267)
R250-D59 (4267)
155
155D
161
169
175
176
177A
188
292
300
944
1401
4155
4155D
4169
4175
4176
4177A
4188
4291B (DY-010A)
4944
6605A
41401
525101A
525187B (R244D61)
525294A

I am no expert on Ducellier distributors except they don't have a split breaker plate like many other distributors so the points are moved relative to the cam, but hey someone who knows more might help further, if needed.
Seems most French vehicles had ignition points that were adjusted internally with some that adjusted dwell/point gap externally.

These kits do not fit the externally adjusted type without modification & frankly I don't see how they fit the internal type without a minor modification. viz...advance cam




Picture 1 shows all the potential problems
Picture 2 & 3 shows the different types of distributor.

The major difference in both these distributors is the breaker plate BUT both types of breaker plate are interchangeable. That is with a little work.


First find a Ducellier distributor without the external adjustment & remove the breaker plate



Remove the point adjuster & breaker plate from the distributor one wants to fit the EI to.
Replace this breaker plate with the one from the donor distributor. Fit the EI components.





This new the replacement breaker plate with EI parts will fit easily but one of the distributor cap clamps breaker plate holes won’t line up.
Carefully drill & elongate the distributor housing hole meant for this purpose. Use a clamp & screw from the donor distributor in the last breaker plate hole. purpose Make a small cover plate & with a gasket or silicone & fit to keep out dust





The only other thing I did was was remove a part of the vacuum advance adjusting cam as it interfered with the black reluctor. Most cams seem to be set on about the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] tooth so removing the upper end teeth should not affect anything.
Added edit: It may be possible to reverse the cam & avoid removing teeth....I'm not sure?
I decided against this route as most elec shops don't have sun testers anymore & I decided to keep the same cam setting & spring tension on the vacuum diaphragm on the 4th tooth, as this distributor had originally.








Re-establish correct timing. I use a vacuum gauge. Block off the vacuum advance & plug gauge into any port under the carburettor into full manifold vacuum.
@ idle, advance the distributor to get the best highest reading. Turn back [retard timing] maintaining that highest reading. Now turn back a little more until the reading is 1” of mercury less. e.g. In this case the engine was top @ 19” of mercury & set on 18” & clamped down.
Readings expected & good are in the 17-21” range depending on altitude & engine condition.
Timing should be spot on BUT take on road test & check for pinging [over advanced ignition timing]. Retard until not apparent.
Too far advanced sounds like shaking marbles in a can.

Hope this helps others & feel free to criticize [with appropriate reasoning] if I've missed anything, add to or comment.
Unless I've missed it, a key point to note is that you cannot set static timing directly with a test lamp with these devices. I fitted mine with the distributor in the car (after a test run on the bench with a spare distributor). Then you can use a timing light to check the timing at idle and advance with increased revs. If the timing at any revs is erratic, wear in the centrifugal and/or vacuum advance systems will not help the effectiveness of the Hot Spark or whichever Hall Effect kit. Mine has been totally reliable for years, as I've mentioned earlier, but the clearance between black reluctor ring (new word for me for which thanks) was zero at one end of the red gismo, so it has worn a bit but with no effect on its performance.

I didn't need to change the timing at all when I fitted it in situ. I've moved on to a fully electronic 123 distributor to finally get rid of some slight snatching due, I think, to wear in the mechanical systems. I'd add that I spent two weeks testing one change a day at a time to try and fix snatchiness at a steady 60 kph on the level. Apart from addressing butterfly shaft wear, the things that actually fixed 90% of it were a new Bosch black coil (about 4 ohms primary resistance, as specified for the Hot Spark kit) and a direct earth to the distributor body. You'd think it would be adequately earthed through the block, but we are talking impedance not resistance.

Great post, for which thanks I'd add.
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
What is brand that unit? Looks very big to me. I used the Pertronix kits, which are much smaller and gave me no problems with fitting inside dizzy.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
What is brand that unit? Looks very big to me. I used the Pertronix kits, which are much smaller and gave me no problems with fitting inside dizzy.

Identical to the Hot Spark kit I've had for years. The white thingy moves with the advance/retard systems as it fits on the points pivots.
Hot Spark R8 Ducellier 2 sml.jpg
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
That's why you have been having problems.

See pertronix here:


And in this picture you can see it installed. Note it doesn't come up past the rotor sleeve as the one you use. The dizzy is a Bosch, dimensionally the same as those used on R12.

That is about 1cmx1cm x2.5-3cm long and you don't have to have the plate. The one pictured is for a BMW2002, but it is the absolute same unit for Renault 12 minus the plate. You can of course not use the plate at all.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
But I haven't been having problems..... Apart from the slightly worn distributor and earthing issue that is. I've done at least 20,000 km with the Hot Spark kit - perfect until recently and still not a sign of failure, just a very slight and irregular missfire. These things are sold in their thousands, for many years now and the web isn't full of complaints.
 
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