Electrics Again

B

baldrick56

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My 505 has been sat, nose in the air, since around August while I attended to various issues. Today I finally got it all back together, filled the coolant, reinstalled the battery ready for a test run, key in, turned once - no dash lamps, dead as. The lights come on with the stalk switch (as does the buzzer to let you know they're on). Fiddling with the switch at one moment it connected & even cranked the starter - but not enough to make it go. Now its dead again. Taking off the trim under the steering col. there's a four-terminal socket close to the ig. switch barrel - the top terminal has 12.5V (matches the reading across the battery) to earth. The 4x plug that connects to this socket (wires appear to go into ignition switch) when multimetered has low-resistance connection reading from the top to all three other terminals - no matter what position the key is placed in! so I'm not understanding what the key is supposed to be doing - I'd imagined the other three terminals activating dash lamps / tachymetric relay / starter solenoid and only going "live" when key turned. Since it was all working before its long layoff I'm suspecting dirty / corroded contacts as most likely reason? is there a way of getting contact cleaner to reach the innards of the ignitionswitch? (tried squirting some down the keyslot but not convinced its going where needed.

Thanks,
Rob
 
Update - I removed the lock barrel (found some old AF post about this) and detached the electric part from the metalwork. The electric switch plastic was in two parts "clawed" together & I managed to separate them with only finger pressure. Inside was a bit of a horror story - it looked like a solid piece of carbon with no discernible metal contacts visible. Hitting it with contact cleaner gradually the layers peeled away to reveal the contacts (also a rotating metal 'vee' shaped contact bridge that fell out).

The clod of carbon sort of explains the multimeter 'always on' connectivity readings between every terminal, as to where the carbon build up came from - well I blame AF for this o_O :eek:
You see there have been posts / dire warnings about the infamous "ignition switch jamming / failure" here for years now and heeding these I regularly gave the keyway a chuff of powdered graphite lube (recommended as preferred option over liquid squirty stuff), with the awkwardness of getting the bottle spout into the keyway many times I observed no result so making sure gave further chuffs til I saw some chundering out the keyway onto the floormat below. Now chastened I realise "less is more" in the case of powdered graphite and it will go beyond the mechanics of the lock and infiltrate the leccy part :(

Where to now? 'Serie04' have NoS ignition barrel / switch inserts however their photo shows a different style of connector plug than on mine so a bit of faffing to make it fit (hate electrics work if you hadn't already guessed). That and the circa $250 with postage and delay to replace the exploded time-bomb with a ticking time-bomb means I'm leaning towards an off the shelf Narva 4 Position keyswitch

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p...O3954349.html?cgid=SCA01060601#start=79&sz=60

for about half the cost and stuff the originality, it won't look as pretty, I'll have to double the sets of keys (but I'd have to do that anyway with the 'original' replacement.

All this just to find out that my replacement Cambelt / power steering seal works or not :mallet:
 
sounds like a result ,no dought the graphite stade in a liquid state when ,disterbed every so often but became solid when left alone ,conducted enough to show a reading on a digital multi meter but not enough to carry a decent current ,maybe even insulating between contacts in the switch ,interesting !i have had to question the pictures on adds on e bay as they often dont look like the parts discribed ,and have found that the parts when they arive are nothing like those pictured ,i wonder if those posting the ad d have found a pic somewhere ,different to whats being advertised ,
 
vfrenchautoparts.com have the early and late type ignition barrels. They are a good supplier (Greek) that I have used several times.
www.vfrenchcarparts.com

Peugeot 505 1st Make Column Ignition Lock Antivol – 252016 416212 | Vintage French Car Parts

Ignition Lock Antivol Lock cylinder kit for Peugeot 505 1st Make Model Brand New Valeo(Neiman) Product.Made in France. Part Number: 252016 Peugeot Part Number: 416212 Compatible Models Peugeot 505 from 5/1979 until 3/1984041 Steering wheel - Column - Anti-theft device - Sheath
www.vfrenchcarparts.com www.vfrenchcarparts.com
 
pontarriere said:
vfrenchautoparts.com have the early and late type ignition barrels. They are a good supplier (Greek) that I have used several times.
www.vfrenchcarparts.com

Peugeot 505 1st Make Column Ignition Lock Antivol – 252016 416212 | Vintage French Car Parts

Ignition Lock Antivol Lock cylinder kit for Peugeot 505 1st Make Model Brand New Valeo(Neiman) Product.Made in France. Part Number: 252016 Peugeot Part Number: 416212 Compatible Models Peugeot 505 from 5/1979 until 3/1984041 Steering wheel - Column - Anti-theft device - Sheath
www.vfrenchcarparts.com www.vfrenchcarparts.com
Click to expand...
I'd give them a go but this was the result trying to follow link:
1700096475043.png

Anyone else had the same issue?
Thanks, Rob
 
baldrick56 said:
The clod of carbon sort of explains the multimeter 'always on' connectivity readings between every terminal, as to where the carbon build up came from - well I blame AF for this o_O :eek:
You see there have been posts / dire warnings about the infamous "ignition switch jamming / failure" here for years now and heeding these I regularly gave the keyway a chuff of powdered graphite lube (recommended as preferred option over liquid squirty stuff), with the awkwardness of getting the bottle spout into the keyway many times I observed no result so making sure gave further chuffs til I saw some chundering out the keyway onto the floormat below. Now chastened I realise "less is more" in the case of powdered graphite and it will go beyond the mechanics of the lock and infiltrate the leccy part :(
Click to expand...
Hi Mr Baldrick

To build up that much carbon or graphite you must of squirted a fair bit in there. Not exactly sure how the 505 ignition barrel is set up but it sounds like the cause of your issue.

My :2cents: worth as far as squirty liquids go is that most people use what ever they have on hand, which may not be the best for the job. I do not use CRC, WD40 etc to lubricate locks, what I use is a Silicone Spray, there are many brands readily available from hardware and auto stores. May favourate brand is Nulon. I have found this brand the best from all the others that I have used.

The Silicone Spray is sprayed on or into what you are trying to lubricate, the solvents that carry the silicone will then evaporate leaving the silicone behind so that you have a dry lubricant that will not attract dust and grit like the other sprays that I mentioned above.
 
Or Teflon spray. Same deal as Silicone spray but coats with Teflon.

But your graphite powder should have been a very good solution. Only point (maybe not mentioned) was that one tiny little bit of graphite is enough for the rest of the car's life. Graphite doesn't go away ever once pressed into the parts coming in contact. If you watch again the Wheeler Dealer episode where Edd repairs a Porsche 911GT2 (993) you will see he just rubs a pencil lead a couple of times on the pop up wing gear.

And no, graphite doesn't go liquid as suggested above. You need 3600 deg C for that.

Either way, the graphite was supposed to be only for keeping the lock barrel from seizing, not lubricate contacts (obs!).

For the contacts I would suggest some dielectric grease is what you want. Something like Silicone grease.

Back to your switch, why can yours not be repaired now? I am not sure I follow. Graphite should clean out well and contacts should be in good shape having been protected all this time.
 
Yes my first thought was switch repair - however one piece of ancient brittle plastic did break off the perimeter, not a deal-breaker in itself but likely indicative of the state of the rest of it. Think I can work out how the vee shaped contact-bridge goes back in, s'pose can be tested before reassembly. Maybe its 'Option 2' if the "universal" switch now on order from Chuperseap proves no good :unsure:

And yes Col, a fair bit of graphite went in over the years - I sort of assumed it needed regular redoing on basis most would fall out over time, didn't think lock was as 'powder-tight' as it obviously was. Worse news is I treated the rest of the 'fleet' to the same process - the Smart has a horizontal key on the tunnel which is kinda surrounded by a 'feed the baby' smeared circle of grey powder :whistle: Not to mention the locks on the house - absolute shit-ton graphite gone in the front door as there's a weird problem if someone's left the key on the inside introducing another from the outside it won't turn 😧
 
When its clean and connecting again put a relay on the starter solenoid to stop this, the back EMF is doing this. Might help to do the same to the headlights, switching them through the stalk cannot be good. You can then get better volts to lights and get better output.
 
Well my joy at having a functional ignition switch was short-lived, spent half the morning making some 'jumper' leads to mount the switch to the steering surround. All appeared well on that front, cranked the motor for all it was worth but no sign of firing. Took out a plug to test if I was getting a spark, SWMBO turning key for me there was a shreik from the drivers seat and smoke curling up from the steering column area. Current draw was sufficient to have melted the live feed :cry:
IMG_2863.jpg

IMG_2868.jpg
 
A remote relay would have saved you this issue, just saying, Switching 20mA does not overload or burn wires. This just shows what a solenoid does do, no wonder the key barrell carboxs up.
 
Matthew said:
A remote relay would have saved you this issue, just saying, Switching 20mA does not overload or burn wires. This just shows what a solenoid does do, no wonder the key barrell carboxs up.
Click to expand...
Don't like to be argumentative over electrics, a subject I know about as much as I do about brain surgery - but the cables I used were rated 10A, the existing Pug ones to all appearances I'd be surprised if they were higher capacity, lets remind ourselves here the car has done 34 years with the same and only the relays Peugeot deemed necessary - OK possibly resistance creeping higher over time but not to the point of ceasing to function (until I turned the keyswitch into a graphite "foie-gras" - with the best of intentions). For 10A rating safe to assume they'd carry 12-15, to melt like the yellow one did there's probably 20A+. There has to be a short circuit somewhere downstream of the keyswitch (I've attempted to find what's wrong but to me its untraceable - yes I can put a multimeter on various wires but how do I know if the gizmo its connected to is supposed to be 20ohms or 20,000?). Understand the principle of a relay which leads me to suppose there'd be three terminals to worry about (low current+, high current+, and common earth), every frickin relay I've ever come across has about eight terminals or more, HTF are you supposed to know what does what?
 
Fair enough, the I squared R losses or more likely a short. Agree. Not suggesting you suck eggs was unaware you were aware of what your doing,
 
baldrick56 said:
Understand the principle of a relay which leads me to suppose there'd be three terminals to worry about (low current+, high current+, and common earth), every frickin relay I've ever come across has about eight terminals or more, HTF are you supposed to know what does what?
Click to expand...
Unless it's a double headlight relay, the majority of automotive relays (on older cars anyway) normally only have 4 or 5 pins?
The 4 pin SPST relay is wired as per attached diagram, and the 5 pin SPDT relay has the extra 87A terminal on it.
The 87 and 87A terminals are used to switch the relay's output to another device when a signal is applied to the trigger terminal (86).
Say you had a truck and wanted a reversing buzzer during the day and a reversing light at night. You would wire the reversing buzzer to 87A and the reversing light to 87, and run a wire from the parking lights to 86.
Then as soon as you switch your parking lights on the buzzer will be silenced, and the reversing light activated.

20231202_122959.jpg
 
There is definitely a something drawing way more current than it should, the wire gauge that you have used should be more than adequate for this.

Do you have a workshop manual with a circuit diagram of the car in it? This will make trouble shooting a lot easier. Reading electrical diagrams is like reading a road map. First of identify the main items on the diagram with the main items in the car , such as starter motor, alternator, distributor, ignition coil etc. Then look at what colour the wires are that go to these and see if they line up with what is on the electrical drawings.

Seeing as the problem is round the ignition switch it will be what is switched by it, so ignition system, starter motor and accessories such as radio, windscreen wipers indicators etc.

Remove the burnt wires and work out what they switch as this will guide you where to look. You will have a supply wire, a wire going off to accessories, and ignition wire and a wire for the starter motor. Identify the what the burnt one-s do.

Just hope that it has not damaged the loom as the only way to fix is to replace the loom.

Lets us know how you get on.
 
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