DS3 forged engine build - help

Timbo, could you please expand on the incorrect tensioning of the crank bolt? i.e what are they doing wrong?
My suspicions on a failed Peugeot 207 EP6 engine were that maybe the mechanic had not cleaned the oil from the oil pump sprocket that bears against the end face of the crankshaft. The valve timing was uniformly advanced on both the inlet and exhaust camshafts, making me think the crankshaft sprocket has slipped? The exhaust valve seat at the gearbox end had partially dropped.
Likewise with the incorrect use of aftermarket tensioners?
Hi Gwest,

I'm no mechanic, but from the information I have been told in passing while researching my build and trying to find a performance shop to take the project on, this particular shop were not torquing the crank bolt enough and it kept slipping. I can't speak exactly to what they were doing, however, they went to the trouble of developing a billet crank hub to 'fix' the timing issue for the N14. Early engines form the 207 era are known to suffer from slipped cam sprockets as the timing chain stretches over time - partially due to the tensioner and the design being a single chain. As for tensioners, they were using aftermarket which are based on the original tensioner from when the N14/EP6 was first launched. Since then, Peugeot/Citroen have revised the tensioner, making it longer, which is why the later THP eTHP165/200 engines have fewer issues. This revision is only available as an OEM part and not aftermarket. So the advice is to buy genuine if you need one.

Hope that helps.
 
Timbo, I'm no mechanic either, but I do have a lot of experience at doing jobs badly! And it strikes me that setting up the timing on these engines is a classic case of how it can be done badly.
It doesn't help that the crankshaft timing chain socket sits in front of a similar one for the oil pump that then bears against the end of the crankshaft. It is not easy to guarantee that the end face of the crankshaft and the rear face of the oil pump socket are clean. With two sockets to clamp onto the end of the crankshaft there is lots of scope for oily surfaces to allow slippage.
There is no excuse for not torquing the crankshaft bolt to the correct torque but the 180 degree angle torque is not trivial to achieve and you need a proper flywheel locking device- it is not recommended to just rely upon the timing pin that sets the crankshaft in the correct position. And of course the 14mm bolt is considered to be torque to yield so should not be reused. Likewise with the cam sprocket/Vanos bolts, although in frustration I have done so for these smaller bolts. The frustration arises from the typical timing instructions having you apply full torque to these bolts before you have checked that the timing is actually correct. If it's not then you have to undo them and repeat the procedure, ostensibly with new cam bolts. I baulked at this with my DS5 and retorqued the cam bolts and have so far done 14k km without incident. I get the impression that you can lose maybe 25% of the clamping force if you reuse it? You can't rely upon the printed word for the correct procedure. There is wise information available on the net but basically you don't apply the angle torque to any of the sprockets until you have checked and achieved the correct timing.
One other area where there is scope for sprockets to slip is the oil withing the Vanos units. Some people would prefill these with oil before setting the timing, which is asking for trouble. But the oil is free to drip out of the oil feed holes that bear against the end of the camshafts, particularly as you may have to reposition the sprockets on several occasions. They should be as free of oil as possible.
When applying the 180 angle torque to the camshafts there are two places where they may be restrained- the lug that the timing tool locates on or the 27mm hexagon on the timing sensor end of the shaft. The latter is not recommended in case it moves on the shaft. Although the restraining bolts on the camshaft timing tools are only 6mm this seems to be a case of using the tool to restrain them. You could also remove the tool and apply a spanner but you would want to be sure that nothing moved.
I'm not convinced that a worn chain actually causes slippage- it may alter the timing but that should be all. The worn chains I have seen are barely longer than new ones.
Tensioners I don't know much about, but I have bought new ones whose compression action was very rough compared to original non-recommended ones. And I am confused about the specifications for measuring wear using the special tool in the timing kit. For instance:
In the Peugeot 207 manual 2006 to July 2009 #4787 published in 2013, on page 2B.5 (VTi petrol engine) Fig 6.4c, the critical length is given as 68mm.
In the Peugeot 308 manual 2007-2012, #5561, published in 2012, on page 2A.6, the non-turbo (VTi) petrol engine, Fig. 6.4c has the critical length as 73.5.
Apparently both these measurements are correct for the particular models.
 
Hey everyone - it's been a while since I gave an update on the build.

We have hit a few snags while tuning the MED17.4.4 ECU and have been working through them. As it stand we cannot access the MAP sensor to customise it. No tool has a log/map for it to increase past stage 2. We are working on a software patch to patch in sensor data from another PSA ECU, MEDV17.4.4 (peugeot sport/citroen racing/DS automobiles) to trick the ECU and gain the capability to adjust it.

We are using KESS3 tool and Alientech software. I'm not a tuner, and have limited knowledge in this space, so it has been a bit of a learning curve. What I am is determined though haha. I've been in contact with guys in the UK, Brazil and WA. My tuner is working with Alientech too on the solve. So between all of this we should know more in the next fews days/weeks.

Almost there!
 
Build Update!

It's been a minute since the last update - as it turns out what we thought the problem was, was not at all the case. The ECU is fine as are all sensors. Long story long, my DS3 would start, run for 4-5 minutes and then die. We have had this issue with atmospheric pressure reading 300 instead of 1000 for months and after some help from Matt at Peugeotech, we were able to steer the problem solving in a different direction. From what I have have been told by Btuned, the larger turbo was pushing too much air through the pcv system and the manifold, which resulted in the DS3 not wanting to maintain idle. They removed the new intake, started it, and it idled for quite a while before less serious error codes emerged. The catch can was not yet installed, but the theory is by customising the new intake and with the extra room in the pcv system the catch can set up will provide, this should fix the probelm and we can finally get this beast on the dyno. It's been a mission for all. We are not there yet, but we are getting closer. I should know more come Monday/Tuesday and hopefully, the DS3 will be tuned and back in my hands in a couple of weeks. 1.5 years is a long time to wait for a car build haha. It's been frustrating, exciting, maddening, and I have no idea how my patience has lasted this long. But it will all be worth it. Attached pic is of the temporary set up while they get the breathing issues sorted.
 

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Timbo, wow what a mission, I see in the photo the PCB is blocked off with white cap. Will be interesting to see final solution and why others in Euro land don't have an off the shelf solution especially by the tuning company you're working with.

Great patience and will be worth while

Dyno will be impressive 😀
 
It sure will Dimi. I think part of the issue is that the kit was designed for the 208 gti and ds3 performance, but can be retro fitted to the 165thp and 155thp. The stage 4 intake piping kit from Pug1Off is set up for the more powerful 208 THP engine with the medv17.4.4 ecu that comes with the larger airflow meter right next to air box, it also has more room in for airflow in the pcv set up. But where there is a will there is definitely a way. 👍😁
 
Had some great news today. The DS3 is finally able to do complete pulls on the dyno thanks to Jordan sorting out the pcv system, and him going through the painstaking task of creating a base custom map from scratch for the MED17.4.4 ecu where he is matching fuel pressure to air through the 02 sensor from the new Turbo Technics S288 K04 turbo. It is VERY efficient haha.

As a result, we managed two complete pulls right through the rev range resulting in 220hp and 340nm atw before running out of fuel. Hoping to hit 280hp 400nm+ atw by the time we are finished. Med17.4.4 is a tricky ECU to tune, and full credit to Jordan and his team for keeping up the good work. Patience and persistence is paying off. When we get closer to the final tune of the car I will get footage and pics of dyno sheet to share with you all. :)
 
Well guys, seems like more patience and persistence is in order. Turns out 220hp and 340nm is the limit of the Med17.4.4 ecu. Not good. Every time we set the fuel map beyond this the ecu ignores our inputs and keeps the fuel map to the max of the stock tune.

We’ve been working with Pug1offs tuner in the uk who has worked with Btuned to look at the file and they confirmed that for us to hit our power goals, we are going to need to move to a standalone ecu setup. We genuinely thought we could get Med17.4.4 to do what we want it to do. Wrong lol.

We are now pricing a solution through motec through. There are other options also on the table which we are going to research as well. These are:

- Running a JB4 standalone port injection setup and tune to piggy back the fuel system and run more fuel (untested on DS3)

- Using the older THP155 DS3 ecu which can run more fuel, and cloning my ecu to it (untested)

There are pros and cons with all, but that is currently where we are at Lol. This is starting to feel like an episode of grand designs where the renovation keeps going and going … I’ve come too far now to turn back. The only way is forwards ☺️
 
Nice work mate, keep at it. Pretty sure I floated the Motec idea back around post 1. Probably still the most complete and painless way to go rather than mix and match. Big investment but probably good insurance. Keep us posted!
 
Have news, we are slowly getting there with the tune. Have not gone motec yet as we wanted to give it one last shot before doing so. Might have been the right decision as we hit 245hp atw and 365nm yesterday on the dyno. Lambda is finally talking to us and sitting at .95 whereas it was was over 1 previously. Also of interest, we played with fuel and ran less and for some reason we made more power. It’s bizarre. Everything with this ecu is in reverse. He’s looking at lifting the torque parameters in the map this week which should allow more fuel and more power again. He’s really confident there’s another 50hp and 50nm there. Oh and another thing. Apparently it likes running at 1.8 bar. It may come down a little with raising of torque. Slowly chipping away guys.
 
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Wow. Well done Tim. I ended up going for Emtron KV8 for Parry and my 205's. Very happy with the results. We got Parry's to 228kW at the wheels with 0.9 Bar.
 
Hi All,
Joined Aussiefrog just to follow this! Whats the update Timbo87!
That's awesome mate, and welcome! :) I should have some news this week, just waiting on the tuner to come back to me. I'm working to a deadline to get it finished by the end of the month. Famous last words haha...
 
Wow. Well done Tim. I ended up going for Emtron KV8 for Parry and my 205's. Very happy with the results. We got Parry's to 228kW at the wheels with 0.9 Bar.
The BHP/tone your 205's would be insanely fun Peter haha. My hope is that the little DS3 will be just as fun. Do you build and tune yourself?
 
Hi Timbo87! Been following this build for a while. Any updates?
Hi Limbo, sorry it's been a while between updates.

We've been working through teething issues and the DS3 is back in the workshop from Monday. It has developed a slight misfire at high RPM while on full boost - could be a couple of things such as the 2nd 02 sensor, spark plugs or ignition coils, or needing to upgrade the MAP sensor on the manifold to the higher bar version that came on the 208gti. As such we haven't made any further power gains as yet, as the BSI unit became faulty and had to be replaced, but that has been done now. LOL cars.

I think these issues are boiling down to the tune being too rich. This ecu has not been easy to tune and we are still looking to raise the torque parameters further. There's more in it. I am looking into another workshop which specialise in the mini version of the MED17 ecu, as they specialise in tuning only - so there could be more to be gained by approaching them to look at the DS3. A second opinion never hurts. Still pulls like a freight train though haha.

Will post progress once I know more next week.

Cheers, Tim
 
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