Dauph gordini motor into 4CV

HI all , need some advice

Am plotting Dauph Gordini motor for Reg, as up here is a bit hilly and I need just that bit more grunt, also slightly faster flat cruising

Motor procured, rebuilt and lightly modded, ready to go

STage 1 will be with existing 3 speed, accepting that cam profile not optimal for this. Hoping that 40+ hp will sort most of this and save 1st gear from too much of a workout

Stage 2, once I have worked out how to do it invisibly and safely, will be 4 speed Dauph box ( procured ) or 330 ( not yet procured)

My understanding is that the transfer plate for gearbox, holding clutch withdrawal mech, is different, the 3 speed one being rather thicker and differently configured, insertion of 4 speed needing some tweaking to get optimal clutch function ( good article in Fourword )

My questions are:

1: WHether dauph motor will bolt straight up to 3 speed. My reading is ‘yes’ but need to be advised by somebody competent

2: Does anybody have a spare dauphine 4 speed transfer plate lying around, as I shall ultimately need this?

Would welcome any advice

Best Wishes

Andrew
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
Don't know anything about this, but can you not mock up a tranny (3sp) to engine rehearsal now that you have both?

Or are you concerned about spigot shaft/clutch gubbins/flywheel matching?
 
At this point am at the assembling bits stage. You are right about need for mock-up/head scratching time

Engine is in car. New engine is in Inverloch where mate and I built it. Not yet allowed to drive to Inverloch to play. Car will ultimately be driven to Inverloch for heart transplant

Am wanting to get the bits together for a mock up, as you suggest, but was hoping that answer to question 1: would leave me only having to do the inevitable mock-up for stage 2. ( when I shall have original engine to play with as a dummy and have decided final solution to how to attach gordini box to 4CV cross member - there are a number of ways to do this, a few elegant ones and some none too pretty )

Best Wishes

Andrew
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
I'll email Andrew!
At this point am at the assembling bits stage. You are right about need for mock-up/head scratching time

Engine is in car. New engine is in Inverloch where mate and I built it. Not yet allowed to drive to Inverloch to play. Car will ultimately be driven to Inverloch for heart transplant

Am wanting to get the bits together for a mock up, as you suggest, but was hoping that answer to question 1: would leave me only having to do the inevitable mock-up for stage 2. ( when I shall have original engine to play with as a dummy and have decided final solution to how to attach gordini box to 4CV cross member - there are a number of ways to do this, a few elegant ones and some none too pretty )

Best Wishes

Andrew
I know of a couple of modified tubular cross members to accomodate the 4-speed 318 gearbox in a 4CV, one of which broke and one of which hasn't! The Dauphine cross member bolts straight in and gives more compliant rear suspension and less noise. Anyway, email sent.
 

pugwash

1000+ Posts
the Douph cross member is the way to go, but the inner guards and the shock towers want to share the same space ,the inner guard has to be relieved to accommodate it, anyway thats how i did it, some 50 years ago ,these cars weren't that precious back then
 
the Douph cross member is the way to go, but the inner guards and the shock towers want to share the same space ,the inner guard has to be relieved to accommodate it, anyway thats how i did it, some 50 years ago ,these cars weren't that precious back then
Many thanks fir the comments and advjce

Hope to avoid cutting and pasting of inner guards if possible , but if I can get dauphine cross member it might well be the sensible way to go

Have just about everything else, so can mock up and see what works

best wishes

andrew
 

harrisonati

New member
Hi Andrew,
I think that I can find a Dauphine rear cross member for you. I need to check my stock of spares to confirm.
 
Hi Andrew,
I think that I can find a Dauphine rear cross member for you. I need to check my stock of spares to confirm.
Many thanks. Would give me choices. I have all the 4CV stuff on floor of garage being glared at at the moment, being able to see the differences would help me in deciding whether to run up the white flag and use Dauphine one or to do some adaptations of existing one, which will be no small undertaking and which would endanger a gearbox, as the strong variants of the adaptation generally involve carving at least some way into the top of it, unless one wants an heroic level of negative camber.

Dauphine stuff seems to be a bit thin on the ground. An underestimated car, suspect rather too many have met a squashy end

Best Wishes

Andrew
 

pugwash

1000+ Posts
im not sure but, i seem to recall the 1st and top ratios are the same but the 4 speed has 2nd below the 3 speeds and 3rd above giving less of a jump, changing down, and much easier to keep it on the boil ,especially climbing hills, no drought a bit of googling could confirm
 
im not sure but, i seem to recall the 1st and top ratios are the same but the 4 speed has 2nd below the 3 speeds and 3rd above giving less of a jump, changing down, and much easier to keep it on the boil ,especially climbing hills, no drought a bit of googling could confirm
Agree - second ;lower and 3rd higher than second in 3 speed

Have been VERY impressed with matching of cam/Ventoux engine and gearbox - he is like the little engine that could - just engage second, plant foot , open good book and wait for him to climb the hill. He won't do it quickly, but will do it. Have rarely had to make the grab to first, usually when baulked by some idiot.

4CV is a very well thought out little car

Gordini motor may muck this up ( sporty cam ). Can only hope that having twice the power helps.

Andrew
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
At this point am at the assembling bits stage. You are right about need for mock-up/head scratching time

Engine is in car. New engine is in Inverloch where mate and I built it. Not yet allowed to drive to Inverloch to play. Car will ultimately be driven to Inverloch for heart transplant

Am wanting to get the bits together for a mock up, as you suggest, but was hoping that answer to question 1: would leave me only having to do the inevitable mock-up for stage 2. ( when I shall have original engine to play with as a dummy and have decided final solution to how to attach gordini box to 4CV cross member - there are a number of ways to do this, a few elegant ones and some none too pretty )

Best Wishes

Andrew
Is there any possibility you could transfer the "fingerprint" of the engine to g'box mating face on some cardboard/paper and measure some relevant distances for the spigot shaft/crank face and send that to the other side so you could at least know where you stand?
 
Is there any possibility you could transfer the "fingerprint" of the engine to g'box mating face on some cardboard/paper and measure some relevant distances for the spigot shaft/crank face and send that to the other side so you could at least know where you stand?
Answer to question 1: is that it will bolt straight on to the 3 speed box

Fitting to 4 speed requires adaptation to 4 speed transfer plate to get clutch/thrust race mechanism at optimal angle - will apparently work just as bolt up, but not well.

Kind saviour has offered me 4 speed transfer plate so I can sit and glare at the two while plotting the necessary adaptation to the 4 speed plate. It involves machining up mounts for the clutch shaft, bushing them and then welding into the right spot to get optimal leverage/ function. This best plotted once looking at both transfer plates.

Measurement, planning out and visuospatial thought have never been my long suit ( give me language any day ) so this will probably involve much screaming and throwing of things, together with many errors, but we should get there in the end.

Many thanks

Andrew
 

Stan W

Member
The rear transmission plate issue is a bit murky because of the different versions of various gearboxes. The 314 gearbox (1959-1961 Dauphine and 4cv) had both the thick back plate (up to sometime in 1960) and the thin steel one. I think this is also true for the 318 four speed box. Don't use the 318 gearbox!! The primary shaft eventually fails - I have never seen a good one. Use the 330 gearbox with the steel back plate from a late 314, 318 or a 325 - I think they will fit the gearbox. If not, the plate could be modified. Dauphines sold in the USA beginning in 1964 came with the 330. I eventually changed my automatic Dauphine to a 330 four speed. Since the Dauphine engine bolts right up, the 4cv should also. I have not modified a 4cv cross member, but I think that is the way to go if you do not want to cut the body. Here is a picture of a 330 in a 4cv that sold recently. It doesn't show the crossmember, but shows that it is possible.
4cv fla14.jpg
 

alan moore

1000+ Posts
My father in law has an R8 Gordini 5 speed in his 4CV using the original motor out to 845cc, some porting and compression, standard cam and a pair of Dellortos from a Ducati 500GTL. This gearbox was fitted using the original crossmember with some mods. Says the taller first and overall gearing is fine, and it will cruise comfortably at 100kph.

I have a 330 "Big Box" with R16TS internals and an R10 crossmember and suspension in my 16TS powered 4CV. There are two cutaways on the inner guard to fit the shocks in, approximately 120mm high by 60mm wide. The R8G box requires some floor modification in the 4CV, as the 330 only just fits for length and the G box is about 100mm longer

He has recently overhauled a 4 speed Dauphine G gearbox for his daughters car, which as Stan said had virtually lost first gear on the primary shaft and was very noisy like grinding rocks for the last 12 years. I stripped three of these boxes looking for a good primary shaft. One was useable, and we received another through the 4CV Register Treasurer, which was a little better and was used. All had some tooth damage. I expect a new primary cluster gear could be made, but wouldn't be cheap.

Anyway the box is back together, and in the Dauphine G, and went for it's first run with the new box today. All is well.
 
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