Cold start - electronic air injection issues.

3

307Danno

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Tadpole
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Hi All, I'm pretty new to these forums... Manage to solve most of the minor hiccups and problems with my Peugeot, but this one's got me completely baffled.

Can anybody explain how the cold air injector works on cold start? what this system does and where I should be looking for faults? I've got a 307 XSE touring 2.0l petrol.

On cold start the Electronic air injector starts up and runs for maybe a minute or so. I understand this is normal, and from what I gather, the cold air injector pushes air into the cylinder head (exhaust???) to help warm up the cat converter to reduce emissions.

The problem I have, is during this period when the electronic air injector is running, the car runs pretty terribly. Idle is super smooth and starts up easy, however, when you take off the car really seems to get bogged down, as if the mixture is way to rich or lean... Almost stalls. I usually wait for it to stop before I drive off...

Anybody had a similar experience? Or can explain how this air injector actually works? Somebody has mentioned that there are channels in the head which can sometimes get block with carbon build up etc, which could interfere with the system... I'm running out of ideas. No error codes when scanned, and otherwise the car runs fantastic.

Any ideas or advise would be greatly appreciated!!
 
G'day Danno,

if yours is like the 180, you need to let the car warm up for at least a minute or so before driving off. I let all the dash warning lights go through their cycle and turn off before I start to go. The longer the better, but at least a minute. :wink2:
Otherwise, it drives like a pig. :mad:
 
Hey guys, any clues on this topic? Yes I can sit there and wait for the air injector to stop - but that's not normal operation! There's something not quite right causing the problem.

Any ideas people??
 
Just googling bought this up.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/41/air-pump/

Sounds to me as though it's simply a system to allow the car to supply extra oxygen to the exhaust gases to allow the catalytic convertor to burn more of the pollutants coming out of the car. This would be especially useful on cold start up.

Generally you have to run a richer mix during cold start because fuel does not vaporize as well when cold and therefore requires more fuel to properly "saturate" the air. From the googling I've just done, it appears that the catalytic convertors are most efficient at or near the stoichometric point for the fuels they are designed for. If the car is running rich, you need more O2 to get the gases back to that point for the cat to work most efficiently.

Based on that I'm struggling to see how the air injector would affect the performance of the car as its sole purpose is to reduce emissions downstream of the engine.

The only thing I can think of is the possibility that the oxygen is injected up stream of the O2 sensor and the injector is not working correctly and the ECU doesn't know it. Then potentially if the car was running in closed loop and the O2 sensor was seeing a more or less oxygen in the exhuast gases it could have an effect on the fuelling the ECU uses. However I wouldn't expect the car to be running in closed loop at startup. Generally cars startup in open loop and work directly off the fuel and timing maps.

I'm wondering if the air injector is a red herring and it's actually something else causing a problem with the cold start. Like an air leak somewhere or a faulty fuel injector. Once the car is running in closed loop something like that can be "hidden" by the ECU correcting for what it's seeing. In open loop it can't.

Edit: The other option is of course that Peugeot aren't very good at tuning cold start. My GTi 180 isn't very good on startup either. In fact it's by far the worst car I've ever owned from that point of view. And that includes an Evo 9 with an Autronics ECU in it.
 
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I'm with BCM. The air is injected into the exhaust. More modern cars sometimes manipulate camshaft timings to achieve the same effect, but not the old 2l.

Mine is ok when stone cold, runs like a pig until the water temp reaches 70, then is fine. I'm getting the computer interrogated and will pass on results YMMV.

John
 
Hi all, sorry for digging up such an old thread, just wanted to post an update - I still haven't solved this problem. I've learnt to live with it... It seems that many 180 owners suffer from this same annoyance. Wait 90 seconds before driving off. Well, this corresponds with the time the air injector pump is running during cold start up. If you give the car a good rev, the air pump stops and it runs OK.

Has anybody removed the air injector pump altogether on a 307 or 180? My guess is that perhaps there are some blocked air paths inside the head which is stuffing up the flow of air and causing some weird mixtures...

Any thoughts?
 
G'day,
I have a system, don't we all ?
Turn the key so all the lights come on, fasten the seat belt, all the lights should be off by now, start the engine. :wink2:
 
307Danno said:
Hi all, sorry for digging up such an old thread, just wanted to post an update - I still haven't solved this problem. I've learnt to live with it... It seems that many 180 owners suffer from this same annoyance. Wait 90 seconds before driving off. Well, this corresponds with the time the air injector pump is running during cold start up. If you give the car a good rev, the air pump stops and it runs OK.

Has anybody removed the air injector pump altogether on a 307 or 180? My guess is that perhaps there are some blocked air paths inside the head which is stuffing up the flow of air and causing some weird mixtures...

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
I would also love to know if anybody has been able to simply remove or repair the secondary air injection? My 180 has the same rough start when the pump is on, if its cold weather it will even stall.
Doee anybody know WHY the secondary air injection makes start up so bad?

Sent from my SM-G950F using aussiefrogs mobile app
 
Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect it has something to do with coking up of the air ports in the cylinder head.

That may be because of poor oil choices, poor oil change strategy or simply old age. An Italian tune up could be in order.

I never used to let mine warm up before driving it. I just drove it gently until the oil temp rose. It never stalled on me but only had 90k and 4 years on it when I sold it.
 
My ports are immaculate... not sure if thats from fuel additives/throttle body cleaner, but I have used liqui-moly gold and other fuel system treatments you put in your fuel.
The EW10J4S doesnt have EGR and you can see the difference between the J4 (with EGR) and the J4S (without EGR).
1520435136183.jpg
Is there a way for the Secondary Air Injection system to become clogged? I will take it apart and have a look tomorrow. Also Ill have a visual inspection of my Cat converter just incase

Sent from my SM-G950F using aussiefrogs mobile app
 
I think BCM is probably right (cme2c too); something that just injects air into the exhaust isn't likely to make the engine run badly.

To reword BCM's hypothesis a bit...

It's most likely something the computer's deciding to do. e.g. Subarus detect air pump failure by seeing too little oxygen after the catalytic converter during the time the computer has commanded the pump to run (just after starting). They tell you about the problem, then, to encourage you to spend the considerable $$$ to fix it, they disable the cruise control -- for no more reason than to be bastards.

So, perhaps:
1. the pump isn't working properly (e.g. stuck valve)
2. the Peugeot oxygen sensor software hasn't considered this possibility and just reports "too little oxygen"
3. the feedback software leans off the mixture to get rid of that report

and you end up running very lean for a cold engine.

If that's right, disabling the pump isn't going to help. You'd need to fix the pump, fool the sensor somehow, or change the ECU software.

So Peugeot's software mightn't be as helpful as Subaru's, but at least your cruise control still works!

Have fun.

Rob.
 
With petrol engines operating at the stoichiometric ratio, catalytic converters are very efficient, over 90%, but only after the converter has reached a temperature over 300 degrees.

The highest emission rates are at cold start when the converter is inefficient, so air is pumped into the exhaust stream to initiate oxidation of the unburnt hydrocarbons. The extra heat brings the converter up quickly.

There is pressure in the exhaust stream. A faulty pump or valve can upset the air/injected fuel ratio and roughen running.
 
307Danno said:
Hi All, I'm pretty new to these forums... Manage to solve most of the minor hiccups and problems with my Peugeot, but this one's got me completely baffled.

Can anybody explain how the cold air injector works on cold start? what this system does and where I should be looking for faults? I've got a 307 XSE touring 2.0l petrol.

On cold start the Electronic air injector starts up and runs for maybe a minute or so. I understand this is normal, and from what I gather, the cold air injector pushes air into the cylinder head (exhaust???) to help warm up the cat converter to reduce emissions.

The problem I have, is during this period when the electronic air injector is running, the car runs pretty terribly. Idle is super smooth and starts up easy, however, when you take off the car really seems to get bogged down, as if the mixture is way to rich or lean... Almost stalls. I usually wait for it to stop before I drive off...

Anybody had a similar experience? Or can explain how this air injector actually works? Somebody has mentioned that there are channels in the head which can sometimes get block with carbon build up etc, which could interfere with the system... I'm running out of ideas. No error codes when scanned, and otherwise the car runs fantastic.

Any ideas or advise would be greatly appreciated!!
Click to expand...

Have you performed a cold start auto adapters reset? Hook up the laptop & go through the menus. The engine must be dead cold & perform the procedure as instructed. I seem to have to do this every two years on my EW10A engined Citroën’s, it makes a huge improvement. I’m thinking of replacing the Lambda sensors in the exhaust system (one pre & post catalytic converters) as thinking they might be the reason it slowly goes back to playing up. At it’s worst the cars start fine then go to move off, faulters, hickups can even stall; No power to take off etc. once re-set they are like a new car with no need to wait for pump or lights etc. Good luck.
 
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Folks,

I helped Mr Fonic perform this reset. In Diagbox, it was called a 'Pack Repair' operation under the engine activities tab.

Cheers, Ken
 
Our 2003 307XSEA with EW10J4 2.0 ltr does the same.
Start from cold and the extra air pump works fine and
shuts off after about a minute and then when you engage
Drive, then Reverse, it shudders like crazy.
Everything us super smooth once abit of heat gets into the motor.
I have already replaced the engine coolant temp. sensor but it still does it.
While the engine was operating during a cold start up with air pump working
I sprayed half a can of CataKleen down the bore of the pump.
Just pull up and remove the cover where the filter lives....it's only a foam
arrangement...I think our engine ate this years ago....spray until the pump shuts off.
I think at 186,000klm, the O2 sensors are due to be replaced.
The car is going to the dealers in Launceston next week for a full diagnostics.
I keep getting two codes popping up P0410 and P0455 which both relate to
emissions.
Once the car reaches normal operating temps, everything is super smooth
and very responsive.
I used a sonic cleaning bath to clean the injectors a couple of weeks ago.
 
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Hi all,
I know this is an old topic but I have been chasing this error code for over a year now. Similar ‘03 307 2.0 petrol wagon. Car runs fine only displaying Antipolution Fault - p0410 error code.

Have cleared the fault numerous times only for it to come back. Iv replaced air pump, air pump hose, air pump valve, egr valve, both O2 sensors, spark plugs, cat converter, oil breather hose and tried all types of petrol. Have even injected a can of carbi cleaner through the air injection port to clear carbon. Nothing has eradicated the p0410 gremlin.

Now I know the air ports may be blocked and the head may need to be removed, but here is the thing that has got me puzzled: After clearing the fault in the ecu it will not appear for a period of up to two weeks. When it does eventually return it is always only after the car has reached normal operating temperature and after I am stationary for a few seconds at the lights. There is particular set of lights about 15 mins on my way to work where the fault has returned numerous times. This is bizarre because the secondary air pump only operates at cold start for 60-90 seconds which tells me the problem may have nothing to do with secondary air injection.

Perhaps it is air/fuel mixtures and the ecu is throwing an inaccurate fault code? Or perhaps the ecu anti-emissions only run a test on the air pump once reached operating temperature to see if it can influence the air fuel ratio on the O2 sensor? The thing is I can normally hear the pump running on a normal cold start but have never heard it at the lights. I was thinking of next rigging a small light somewhere to know when it is running to see if this is correct. Hoping someone here might save me the hassle...

Thoughts?
 
domsedge said:
Hi all,
I know this is an old topic but I have been chasing this error code for over a year now. Similar ‘03 307 2.0 petrol wagon. Car runs fine only displaying Antipolution Fault - p0410 error code.

Have cleared the fault numerous times only for it to come back. Iv replaced air pump, air pump hose, air pump valve, egr valve, both O2 sensors, spark plugs, cat converter, oil breather hose and tried all types of petrol. Have even injected a can of carbi cleaner through the air injection port to clear carbon. Nothing has eradicated the p0410 gremlin.

Now I know the air ports may be blocked and the head may need to be removed, but here is the thing that has got me puzzled: After clearing the fault in the ecu it will not appear for a period of up to two weeks. When it does eventually return it is always only after the car has reached normal operating temperature and after I am stationary for a few seconds at the lights. There is particular set of lights about 15 mins on my way to work where the fault has returned numerous times. This is bizarre because the secondary air pump only operates at cold start for 60-90 seconds which tells me the problem may have nothing to do with secondary air injection.

Perhaps it is air/fuel mixtures and the ecu is throwing an inaccurate fault code? Or perhaps the ecu anti-emissions only run a test on the air pump once reached operating temperature to see if it can influence the air fuel ratio on the O2 sensor? The thing is I can normally hear the pump running on a normal cold start but have never heard it at the lights. I was thinking of next rigging a small light somewhere to know when it is running to see if this is correct. Hoping someone here might save me the hassle...

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The cat you put in, was it a stock one? Wondering if maybe the old cat was bad and the new one maybe isnt good enough. You could try disconnecting the 2nd sensor (but leaving it plugged in to the ECU) and plugging the hole, and going for a drive to see if the code comes back.
Same idea as when you get a de-cat you can trick the computer by moving the 2nd 02 sensor away from the exhaust flow (with an extended angled threaded fitting of a couple inches) which gives it a regular reading akin to what it would expect from the cleaned exhaust. If too much unclean exhaust gets through the cat then the 2nd 02 sesnor will bring up a pollution code.

Sent from my SM-G950F using aussiefrogs mobile app
 
Hi everyone!
I have exactly the same problem - stuttering after cold start when trying to drive right after start, P0410 after few days after cleaning error codes.
I know its a bit strange to unearth 2018 thread, but there is not very much info about this problem and here domsedge got something very similar. I'm driving C4 2005, the 180 version and have no idea what to do - air pump is working when connected directly to battery (and working very well), my mechanic told me that he checked every fuse etc and everything seams fine, but as far as he knows, pump wont start. Or it's to hot for it to start, i dont know...
Anyway, i would be gratfull if someone would share some light, or maybe domsedge figured it out?

All the best to you all.
 
I think I will have to go to Peugeot and chat to a technician. Surely they have information on this as a common type of fault with these engines.
I think it is all ECU related, and probably for emissions initially. But also likely has no real solution, other than tuning some features out, which would be illegal. I have heard people here and there say (well, read would be more correct) that they have pestered Peugeot into fixing the tune, which they didnt seem to want to do (during warranty phase) and some other people have said theyve gotten different tunes flashed onto their car that eliminated issues (by perhaps re-writing the start up parameters).
Im leaning towards later buying an OBD2 Tuner kit for about $100 and then buying a file for another $100 or so. And to see if that changes anything, or if theres even a tune somebody has made for this issue (as well as bigger exhaust and all that jazz)
 
You could get the latest software but apart from that you will be wasting your time a cold adaptive reset may help as well. The French will not modify a tune for anyone especially a car that’s 10 years out of warranty


Garage C5 X7 3008 XTE
Gone but not forgotten 206 GTI 180 306 XR SED 405 MI16 x2 xzara VTS 406 SV 206 XT Berlingo 2011 (best car ever) 306 HDI 307 XSE HDI touring
Fix it right the first time
 
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