C4 Grand Picasso Battery swap

pottsy

Citroen Loony & BMC Nutter.
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Once for the Brains Trust. The battery in Pablo appears to be the original of 2015 vintage so I reckon sheer prudence would dictate a change.

He's off to the House of Regan on Thursday to address a pesky emissions fault that came up just the other day.

The emission fault light and the urea light light came on. Last time this happened I bought a bottle of AdBlue with the clever little spill-proof filler and added it as per spec. Lights went out and all was fine with the world for next 1700 odd kms.

On Friday the urea light again lit up, along with the "emission system fault" indications, so I sourced a 10 litre bottle of the Right Stuff [Penrite Penblue] and carefully added it to the reservoir as prescribed, using the clever bottle to do so.

Started up and was confronted with "Engine fault, have the vehicle repaired", along with check engine lamp on and urea lamp flashing. Car is also now telling me I have 1100 km before I won't be able to start it. I know it's got AdBlue, so I'm assuming a deeper problem, hence the trip to Regan's.

We shall see what transpires, but the question I have for the Trust is, could an aging battery cause this issue?

The Stop & Start hasn't operated for some time, but motor cranks and starts quite normally. I presumed the S & S going out to lunch was because we've been locked down so long the car hasn't had any proper runs other than in a 10-15km radius.

Once the issue is sorted, and I'm being confident that it will be, at least I hope so as the 6 year warranty runs out next week, I'll source a new battery.

I'm reasonably confident at being able to swap the battery over without too much drama. It's not exactly rocket science, but can anyone enlighten me as to whether any resets of BSI or ECU are needed consequent to a battery change? If it's all too hard, I'll get the dealership to fit a new battery, but I'm reluctant to pay their kind of monies for a task I believe I could do myself.

Looking forward to learning more about these electronic beasts!

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
The thing to remember is that car computers are normally always running, and computer systems need to shut down properly, and be given time to reboot.

Battery changes are easy on these cars if you let the system "sleep", ignition off, before disconnecting. Just opening or closing a door is computer detected. The handbooks don't mention very long waits, but being conservative I have a cuppa. In that time touch nothing or you will have to start again. Then disconnect and change. After the new battery is connected, another decent wait, so the computers can all reinitialise. Touch nothing or things will go awry. Final init occurs when you put the key in, turn it on, and give it a minute or so wait in that state while more things get set, then turn further to start.

Experienced mechanics can do it quicker, but long waits and touch nothing works.
 
Have heard [I don,t own one with adblue]of late Adblue Peugeots having issues with the adblue system if the cars have had very little use over a long period. Same running gear as Pugs so may be a question to ask your dealer/mechanic.
 
RE: battery change:
Battery shops and auto elecs generally use a small 12 volt battery connected to the battery terminals or 12 volt power socket (cigarette lighter socket) to keep the computer "alive" during the battery swap. If you are using the lighter socket, I think you have to keep the ignition switch to "on" or at least "accessory." This way the computer never loses its power supply. However you'd want to be pretty sure you don't accidentally touch the + battery terminal to earth!

Personally - I'd let a professional change a battery these days. You have lots of options - battery specialists like Battery World or Every Battery (EB sell Varta, which was OEM on my 307); Your nearest European car specialist mechanic; Auto Electrician; RACV; I believe you can still Holler for a Marshall, too. I'd be concerned if I make a wrong connection, however briefly, I could munt the car's computer, so I'd leave it to an expert (someone with liability insurance...)
 
Ray, when I had a new battery fitted to my C5 3.0 (the battery lives in the side panel of the boot in these) the battery place plugged in an auxiliary power source via the OBD port. When I asked if plugging in via the cigarette lighter was just as good, they strongly advised against it, saying using the OBD was much safer and better able to handle power load requirements. A couple of months earlier they had done the same thing when putting a new battery in my wife's series II C5. No waiting for systems to go to sleep or wake up in either case, and no problems.
Cheers, Robin
 
OBD memory savers are boons for the time poor, like auto electricians. They are easily obtained from auto shops that carry electrical tools. Professional models have decent capacity 12v batteries in them. But there is little to reset in modern Citroens, and the wait method is much less likely to allow something destructive, like earthing an active.
 
Battery shops now have an electronic tester that will telly if battery is weak. NOT a load type tester.
Typical device Tester read specs gives you available CCA in old battery and new ones as well
Battery may be fine and just a long run to clear the 10km gunge from your engine and fully recharge battery so stop start works.
They all use a separate 12V supply while changing batteries these days as they want to turn you around quickly
 
Thanks guys. I'm working on the premise that a 6 year old needs to be changed anyway. When plastic cased batteries became the norm, popular wisdom assumed a working life of 3 years. Any more was a bonus, but a potential risk. In my old classics, I don't really care since the three Citroens at least have crank handle capability anyway, and the Mini is light, but with all the magic boxes in Pablo it's an issue.

I used my jump starter and clip leads to maintain volts on the C5 when I put in the new battery. No problems.

I'm thinking, however, that doing the waity thing when changing it is just as easy anyway.

It still doesn't address the possibility that the emission fault is caused by a slightly higher internal resistance in the battery, rather than a dodgy urea pump or just sheer bloody-mindedness of French electronics. Hopefully the Certified Gurus will assist.

Cheers, Pottsy
 
Hi Pottsy,

The C5 series monitors the battery voltage during cranking. If it gets too low, it aborts the starting process. Once the engine has started, the alternator takes over and power voltage is then around 14 volts so what the battery is doing doesn't matter unless you are out at night in the heavy rain and are using all the electrical accessories - a rare event. So if the I were you I would leave the battery replacement until next winter. Just out of interest, what are the specs for the stop/start battery you would be looking for?

Because of the above, I think it is unlikely that the battery performance is causing your emission faults, but you are breaking new ground on this forum for an engine with an Adblue system. You will have to cruise the peugeot forum for answers on that one. Seeing you are just still under warranty, I would get it in for a warranty repair at a Citroen Peugeot Dealer ASAP and make sure you are happy with the result.

Cheers, Ken
 
If the ad blue warning has raised it's ugly head then you may find it's a faulty tank
I know peugeot have this covered as it's quite expensive so if it is faulty don't pay a cent for it (beware $5k unit)
 
It already had a new tank in my custody, but that was due to a leak. Definitely worth getting it checked if a replacement/warranty claim becomes necessary. It was a $5k unit already about 3 years ago!!
Cheers, Robin
 
Thanks Ken.

Yes, I've booked in to the nearest accredited dealership (Regan's) and they're aware of the imminent warranty expiry. I've been verbally advised that this will be honoured, even if the repair can't be completed until after the expiry date.

I'm actually thinking I'll get them to fit a new battery anyway, partly through laziness, but also to cover things if there are other issues.

Don't know the specs, but I guess they should be readily available. My personal preference would be one from Bond Batteries here in Melbourne, mainly because of brand loyalty. I've had quite a few of their product over the years and they've always been good.

The driver's handbook, despite being 20mm thick, doesn't give a spec for the battery. I imagine it has to be something pretty beefy, and presumably with some fancy internal configuration to ensure low internal resistance. (AGM rings a bell?)

RACV Batteries list a 760 CCA AGM battery for the car. They also want $450 odd for it!

I'll see what transpires on Thursday.

Cheers, Pottsy
 
They will likely supply a Citroen branded EFB (extended flooded battery). These are cheaper than AGMs, a sort of half-way solution, supplied with new diesels, and can do more starts than a standard battery.

Last time I was looking my best price by far for an AGM was from a farm and rural supplier, who sold batteries for farm equipment. The Cit requirement was in the catalogue and ordered in.
 
Well the Gurus at Regan's have plugged in their magic voodoo stuff and reset the engine fault light. They reckon that simply filling up the AdBlue tank is not enough to clear the alarm, and that the reset should be done every time a top up is performed as part of the "factory approved servicing regime".

I guess that's a fair call, and it was certainly the case with the well hidden bladder arrangement in the older diesel cars, but I can't help feeling that adding more fluid should be a simple task, not involving electronic intervention. Maybe I'm channeling my inner Luddite.

In any case, none of that explains why the first time the Urea alarm reared it's head, adding fluid was all it wanted and alarms went away for the next 1700 kM. My only theory for that is that perhaps it was scraping the bottom of the barrel this time.

In any case, with 10 litres now in there I'll be checking it again in a few thousand km.

I also bit the bullet and had them fit a new battery. I'm now confident he'll face whatever comes for quite a while longer.

Thanks for the help. Pottsy.
 
If they are similar to the pug tank they hold close to 17L from memory
Seeing as mine has traveled 2200km's this year I haven't even thought nor had the warning to put any adblue in
In fact I don't think I have put any in for nearly 2 years
 
The Adblue system does not replace the Eolys particle filter additive, but supplements it. You still have a particle filter and an Eolys reservoir/bladder and that does need to be reset using the diagnostic tool when refilled or replaced.

For Adblue, full is approx 17lt. Top up every 10K and you should never run out. Leave some headspace in the Adblue reservoir (drain and refill 17lt to see where 'full' is if you must) and if the vented cap is covered in crystals and likely blocked wash it off in water. Normal topping up does not require clearing of any fault codes as there shouldn't be any. If it was simply low and the float gauge inside the tank (magnetic) is working correctly, adding Adblue should make the warning go away, but faults remain in the log until erased by a technician. If it had a low pressure fault, the kind that tells you that starting will be prohibited in xxx km, you might ask them to let the extended warranty administrator know you had this urea concern and that they have cleared the fault and returned it to you and will monitor. This may give you a chance of a warranty claim being accepted if clearing the fault just masked a failure that returns very soon after the warranty has expired.

Stop/start doesn't work for a variety of reasons, but especially when the battery condition/charge is below, I think, 75%. Old batteries lose their capacity over time and can still start the car, but maybe not strong enough to keep the stop/start going.
 
Well whether the emission fault was caused by low battery capacity or not is moot, but having just been for a drive I find the stop/start is now working, and the motor kicks over faster than it ever did before, so changing the battery is a definite plus.

For reference, the battery that came out was a Varta 760cca AGM unit.

As far as the emission faults are concerned, when the alarm came up the first time (in July) it was the "starting inhibited in 1100km" one and that was when I shouted it a 3.5L bottle of AdBlue, and the alarm disappeared.

This time the first alarm that came up was "emission fault - Have engine repaired" and it was only after I added 10L of PenBlue that the "starting inhibited..." alarm came up as well. After a few drives (at least 7 or 8 starts) the inhibit alarm went away, but the engine fault one was obviously what needed resetting in the BSI/ECU.

I dipped the tank before and after adding the 10 litres so I have an idea of the relative levels and will keep an eye on it now.

I wasn't aware that the AdBlue cars also still had an eolys system. I understood the AB to be a replacement catalyst. Shows I don't know everything certainly.

Time will tell I guess.

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
Eolys aids the regeneration combustion of the solids trapped by the exhaust filter. Adblue urea causes an exhaust reaction which converts nitrogen oxides.
 
My education is now augmented, thanks.

How often does the eolys need replenishment then? Is it something i should be concerned about at 67,000 km?
 
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