Big news on Air/Con

[Alan S]

Just finished sharing an ale - - Hang on; I'll start again
Jusht finnisht shhharing 'n ale with a mate of mine who is also a fridge mechanic. He tells me that if you have an older type of car with the old gas - R-12 in it that it is no longer necessary to have the system totally converted for the new gas. There is a gas now on the market being distributed by James N Kirby with a strange title like "R541a" or some similar designation which will "go on top" of R-12. By "go on top" he explained, you can actually top up an old R-12 system without evacuating the system with a vacuum pump as with R-134a and you don't need to change the lines and TX valve. If your system is already converted, then you can get it converted as the running pressures are closer to the old R-12 than the new 134a and so it helps reduce your running load by the air/con system.
This should be the greatest news since sliced bread (or canned beer) for us owners of older cars with air/con.
Cost for conversion minimum $400 plus drama each time it needs servicing. Cost to top up with this stuff? $60

I've organized for his gas bottle to fall off the back of his truck sometime next week and I will post more specific details once I get the BX freezing inside

Alan S

 

[Biodiesel]

To my knowledge, this has been around for a while. The whole Kerfaffle re Freon gas was that the patent had run out, So suddenly the patent owners lost their cash cow (As anyone could make it after that). They made the 'new' gas so they could patent it, so keeping their income guaranteed.
Anyone heard anything about the holes in the Ozone layer lately?? (He says cynically)
Regards Doug

PS there are much more environmentally freindly refrigerant gases available, (eg Ammonia) but more work would have to be done on seals etc to use it. (Ammonia was used for large scale plants up until the 60's)
If you are interested in finding out more, search on 'Stirling Engines' as many of these use frig gases also.

 

[Alan S]

Thanx Doug,

But after doing 5 years as an apprenticeship and about 30 years thereafter, I've had a bit of experience with these.
The ammonia systems you refer to were controlled under a steam qualification and this is also the refrigerant used in gas/kero/element types (commonly referred to as absorption systems) and is totally useless in normal refrigeration systems.
R-134a is the gas used commonly as a replacement for R-12 but as it is not compatible to certain aspects of the old R-12 systems it is an expensive job to convert (not that it always needs to be) and this is why this is big news as apparently this gas has not been around for all that long.
For the record, R-134a is bought by these guys at around $11 per Kg whereas this other stuff comes in around $17. That's what they pay for it so it will probably be charged out around $25 - $35 per Kg.
Still cheaper than the R-134a conversion; by miles.

Alan S

 

[Ray Bell]

I have info on another product, used in agricultural machinery apparently, I can find and post. But it needs evacuation.

LPG based products are totally compatible and a little more efficient than R12.

 

[Rod Hagen]

Originally posted by Alan S:
<strong>
Cost for conversion minimum $400 plus drama each time it needs servicing. Cost to top up with this stuff? $60 </strong><hr></blockquote>

More like $200-$250 for a conversion these days, Alan. (Cost me $200 to have the job done on my 505 recently) Still dearer, but not that different.

If you want recent information on the current state of the "hole", take a look at <a href="http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/met/jds/ozone/" target="_blank">http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/met/jds/ozone/</a>

I'm afraid you will find that it remains a very , very real problem. The "hole' reaches its peak in September and disappears by about January. Last year in September it covered some 25million square kilometres.

There is very little real sign of improvement yet.

Cheers

Rod

 

[Alan S]

Originally posted by Rod Hagen:
[QB]

More like $200-$250 for a conversion these days, Alan. (Cost me $200 to have the job done on my 505 recently) Still dearer, but not that different.

Rod and others,

The reason for me making this posting was to make some of you guys aware who can benefit from this info if they use it as a basis for getting prices to have their air/con done.
There are often postings on various boards quoting all sorts of extortionate prices for servicing car air/cons.
It is an unfortunate fact that unless it has recently been introduced, there was no such thing as a "Car air conditioning mechanic" as a stand alone trade; it was guys like me who had served an apprenticeship in general refrigeration/air conditioning who decided to specialise in it or alternatively the local car auto electrician who decided that there was a buck to be made by using technical terms he had read in a book and blowing a charge into the local doctors car without leak testing and advising him to get it topped up every month who created a service business mainly due to the bona fide tradesmen not having the time nor inclination to play around with the automotive stuff. As a result, chances of being ripped off getting your car air/con done are about on a par with a guy wearing a ten gallon hat and elastic sided boots getting a guided tour of Sydney by a local, not very fluently English speaking taxi driver, when he really only wanted to go round the corner. (Quoting the voice of experience ) It has created an opportunists paradise.
The guy who told me $400 as a base price for a "full and proper conversion" was quoting the charges from another operator who has won awards for the standards of his service and a comparison on his charges. He is one of the few tradesmen that the local Pensioners Association will endorse. The $200 quoted as todays price could be correct to do the job I was quoted $60 for. The reason I say this is that to do a proper conversion to R-134a (which incidentally is proven to cause testicular cancer) it requires the hoses to be replaced cost say $100 possibly. TX valve cost say $80 remove compresssor and drain and refill with oil say Labour $50 oil $10; decant system and bag to collect say $25. New filter dryer, say $65 Evacuate system and do test for leaks and moisture contamination, car to be left overnight and recharge with R134a. Labour and gas maybe tracer etc., say another $100 = $430 in total.
Now these prices are somewhat a rough estimate due to the length of time I have been out of the trade, they would be in the ball park.
By contrast, you could be charged what appears to be a reasonable price for a "complete conversion" which was a simple "drop on top" recharge as I described in my original posting which can obviously be had for around $60 if you find a repairer prepared to play it square.
Alternatively, if the repairer is doing a "halfa" conversion and using the gas I spoke about plus a new filter/dryer. then it can work out a bit more but a lot less than a genuine full conversion and no reson why it shouldn't be just as good.
As I said, I didn't post this to try to impress people with my knowledge of air/con (as I don't think it's all that great) but to give you all the ammo to prevent yourselves from getting ripped off. No doubt the news has come a little late for some

Alan S

 

[Rod Hagen]

Thanks Alan. The US EPA has a useful list of alternative refigerants, some approved, some not, at <a href="http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/macssubs.html" target="_blank">http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/macssubs.html</a> It also discusses the practice of using "drop in" alternatives. Its apparently illegal in the US at least.

The cost of my own 'retrofit" included flushing the system, changing compressor oil, fitting a new receiver dryer filter, service port adaptors, regassing with 134a, performance testing and UV leak testing. It didn't include new hoses, though he warned me beforehand that it it might, and said that they didn't need it when he checked them.

When I checked the invoice it turns out to have been $250 rather than $200, which brings it pretty close to your estimate if you add in the hoses I guess.

Thanks for the long response to the previous post Alan. I certainly agree about the possibility for rip-offs in this game.

Cheers

Rod

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>

 

[Alan S]

Rod,

Totally away from the air/con French Motor car topics, can I ask you a personal question?
Are you involved with the EPA in any way (preferrably Federal) and if so could I have an off the record discussion with you offlist?
I can be contacted via e-mail or private message if you look at the icons at the top of this message.
Thank you.

Alan S

 

[Stuey]

Damn! I was just going out this week to buy some R134a to apply to my testicles, too...

Stuey

 

[Alan S]

Stuey,

You don't have to apply it; just sniff it a bit like these fridgies do and hey presto!!
They drop on the floor and you can apply whatever you want to them
Don't lose sight of the fact that most car air/cons leak at the TX valve/evaporator joint which I believe is the reason why this different gas is the preferred option.
Just like the old asbestos cases which claimed a mate of mine recently, they never seem to want to admit to it until there's been a few litigation cases at which stage they all claim ignorance of the consequences that they have been warned about for years.
With asbestos it was leaving workers of any sex affected whereas with this stuff it's more selective unless the femme featales have something that they aren't telling us

Alan S

 

[Rod Hagen]

Originally posted by Alan S:
<strong>Rod,

Totally away from the air/con French Motor car topics, can I ask you a personal question?
Are you involved with the EPA in any way (preferrably Federal) and if so could I have an off the record discussion with you offlist?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No Alan, I just have a personal , very general, interest in this sort of stuff.

I'm an anthropologist by profession.

Cheers

Rod