Australian assembly

S

Stuey

Well-known member
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Fellow Frogger
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Location
Perth, Western Australia
Hi guys,

Sort of following on from the R5 thread, how does Australian build quality compare to French/European for 60's and 70's Rens?

I note the atrocious build on my 12 and just wondered. Note that I'm not complaining - I like the utilitarian-ism of it. Huge panel gaps, chewing gum-like stuff in hidden gaps etc. etc. :D

One thing I do notice compared to a successful contemporary (my first car, a Holden Gemini) is how well the windows seal and the lack of wind noise, despite the gaps.

Cheers

Stuey
 
Stuey,

I can only compare Jap stuff with Aussie build back in the 60's and 70s.
The Aussie colour schemes were different which was a pity. The colours the Japs used were more softer and seemed to suit the cars better than the Aussie colours which were more "in your face" as regards tonings. A green, paler than that used on this site was called "Spring green" and suited the early Corona & 4 cylinder Crowns well but was replaced by a Turquiose and a Dark Green (almost BGR). The Jap white had an almost slight creamy look whereas the Aussie white was stark & looked as though it was painted in white wash in someones backyard eek!
When we had Jap imports, we rarely if ever had to do touch ups and the like unless it was to repair the repairs the distributors had been forced to do often caused by "Wharfies" walking across bonnets or turrets to show their contempt for Japanese & anything associated with them - nice bastards mallet mallet
The upholstery on the local stuff was again different in colour & texture and where it lacked in comfort through being a bit stiff, if gained in durability. Panel fit was pretty average on the local stuff and problems with tyres whilst unheard of on imported stuff was common in local stuff.
I know the Japs eventually insisted on putting a few of their own in at AMI in the finish to try to improve the standards but with little effect and eventually went back to importing until they got it all sorted out.
I don't think the assembly plants in any country can match "head office" no matter how they try for several reasons not the least of which is the insistence of various Governments (ours has been notorious for it) of setting a percentage of local content without any stipulations on the quality of that content. clown

Alan S whip
 
Friend of mine's brother bought a new R12 in about 1973. It rusted out in 12 months. What more can be said!!! The local quality was pretty patchy at best from what I remember.

For Euro. cars like Fiat and some imported Renaults, the interiors seemed pretty fragile to me, with bits falling off and wearing out and so on. Jap quality seemed excellent in comparison, and even if not comfortable, durability was good as Alan said.

Then the local component - remember Datsun 1600 seats? Words fail me. I had a French R8 then (still do) and there wasn't much comparison.

JohnW
 
In the 50s/60s, the general thought was that Euro build quality was better than Australian. So it's interesting that the 4CV (or 750) was available in the mid 50s as either imported or local build. Imported cost a few quid more, but neither really had great build quality. They were "el-cheapo" cars after all :) . I've read that when Hino started to build them from CKD kits, they rejected a stack of parts as being outside their build tolerances.

I'd have to say that the Jap cars, while initially rubbished as inferior, really had the build quality game well under control long before anyone else.

I suspect the Aussie built cars may have been a bit behind Europe in build quality till the Japs arrived, then in the 70s the locals realised they had to lift their game. Europe didn't have the same outside pressures till fairly recently, so I suspect their build quality improvement came later.

In 1992 we picked up a new R5 "five" via Eurodrive in Paris. Build quality was absolutely appalling: rear hatch didn't work properly the whole time we had it, tail light cluster wired incorrectly, inside front doors were just one sheet of low grade moulded mid grey plastic incorporating door pulls etc. Thrown together, and it showed. It ran well, but would have been nearly unsaleable here.

But the appeal of a car is from more than just build quality! Vehicle dynamics, comfort, etc. Hence Froggy cars in our household.

GeorgeC
 
I could stand corrected here but I think the Virage was imported; initially anyway. Of the ones I sold people did comment on the quality & feel & as most when I was involved were metallics I suspect I could be correct; Euros had a thing about the metallics about that time.
The car that really brought Nissan off the perch was the 200B which followed the 180 which was imported.
I once traded a 200 (very cheaply) on a 504 that had driven the owners to distraction with a rattle...bad one & intermittent. Eventually was "put through" the factory and after several weeks it turned out to be a roof brace that wasn't welded at the factory when it was made. This, coupled to the squeaky dash and rattly doors got too much & they just diced it. We thought we'd stolen it but did our asses on it too moon moon At the time there was a move on to try to get manufacturers to "consolidate" and the number of car brands & models were trying to be legislated to a fixed number; moral of the story: don't let someone driving a leather office chair, sitting behind a desk & driving around in a Government car complete with driver advise you how a motor industry should be run. mallet mallet
Iy was triumph for the boofheads of the World clown clown & one that I don't feel Nissan ever really recovered from in Australia.

Alan S :D
 
Alan S:
I could stand corrected here but I think the Virage was imported; initially anyway. Of the ones I sold people did comment on the quality & feel & as most when I was involved were metallics I suspect I could be correct; Euros had a thing about the metallics about that time.
:D
Click to expand...
All 12's and Virages originally sold in AUS were locally assembled. The metallic paint on 12/Virage/16 Specials was Australian applied and the shades were also used on other AUS assembled cars like Triumph, Toyota, VW and of course Peugeot.

As an example of AUS build quality, you only have to compare an equivalent age fully imported 15TS/17TL/17TS. The vinyl and cloth trim on these cars literally wilted in the AUS sun, where the AUS sourced vinyl and cloth lasted for many years before finally succumbing, although the cloth trim even now survives well. Also the later 12's (excepting 12L and LE)and 16's had full loop pile (late '76 onwards cut pile) carpeting. The French assembled 12/15/17 having only plastic mats or fuzzy felt type carpeting.

Body build quality is probably quite similar, although the AUS spec cars do benefit from being tropical specification with stronger lower wishbones, sumpguard etc. The large panel gaps are probably typical of the original design, and would make the car easier to assemble with the imperfections in panel alignment being disguised by the large gaps. In my opinion the detailing was also better on the AUS cars, with the sill spotwelds and lower mudguard attachment being painted black on the later AUS assembled cars, not being as obvious as the body colour of the French cars.

The post mid '74 models are the ones to go for having the electrophoreses hassles sorted, but some '77 and later cars seem to have the rust bug from poor quality steel being used in the panels because of a French steel strike at the time.

Simon
 
Originally posted by AlanS:
The car that really brought Nissan off the perch was the 200B which followed the 180 which was imported.
Click to expand...
Alan, that reminds me of when I was involved in various Government committees involving motor industry engineers some many years ago. One industry man from a local manufacturer asked "What is the difference between a Nissan 180B and 200B?" (for the benefit of the youngsters, they were nearly identical - scroll down)
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Answer: 20 more mistakes! cheers!

GeorgeC
 
Simon,

Exactly right by my understanding. Our Virage has near perfect trim after 23 years but has had a bit of rust in guards.

The last Virages were real hybrids, with, if I remember, things like Canadian front panels or grills and awful Lucas sealed beam lights that were hugely improved with Hella inserts.

Cheers

Nice to meet you last Sunday.

JohnW
 
If you check out the local 12's from around 1977 you will find one of the upholstery vinyls used was inadequate....sort of a chocolate brown colour. The seat coverings in this material crack badly compared to the other vinyls used.

The 12 is a really basic, one step above agricultural, vehicle...any fool can work on one...which of course is why I ended up with a few in the yard. mallet
 
JohnW:
Simon,

The last Virages were real hybrids, with, if I remember, things like Canadian front panels or grills and awful Lucas sealed beam lights that were hugely improved with Hella inserts.

Cheers

Nice to meet you last Sunday.

JohnW
Click to expand...
John, good to meet you last week as well!

The Virage indeed was a real mix, the centre grill was the Swedish version from 1976 onwards, the outer surrounds were those from the US/ Canadian version. The Lucas lights were there probably for convenience as well as AUS local content rules.

BogMaster:
If you check out the local 12's from around 1977 you will find one of the upholstery vinyls used was inadequate....sort of a chocolate brown colour. The seat coverings in this material crack badly compared to the other vinyls used.

The 12 is a really basic, one step above agricultural, vehicle...any fool can work on one...which of course is why I ended up with a few in the yard. mallet
Click to expand...
The dark brown vinyl and its grey equivalent on the later AUS cars is still much better than the French market stuff! Although I suppose with the way salted roads treated the body in France many would not be around long enough for the seats to deteriorate, although deteriorating trim must have been a problem in the sunny south of France!

Simon
 
Simon,

There's the ozone hole to consider too - I'd guess our UV intensity is much more than France. Our plastics beat many imports - there were stories of imported Mitsubishi dashes draped around the steering wheels of cars sent to the north of SA for "park through summer" testing of materials.

Cheers

JohnW
 
Weren't Ford TC or TD Cortinas also assembled alongside Renaults at some time in the mid to late 70s? (Maybe just the wagons?)
Remember I once had a 1.4 Special wagon that had rusted where some fool had cut through the paint all over the place when trimming the headlining.
 
Bruce H:
Weren't Ford TC or TD Cortinas also assembled alongside Renaults at some time in the mid to late 70s? (Maybe just the wagons?)
Remember I once had a 1.4 Special wagon that had rusted where some fool had cut through the paint all over the place when trimming the headlining.
Click to expand...
Yeah Cortina wagons were built at the Renault plant up until the late 70's and were it's largest source of revenue. The profitability of the plant never recovered when they stopped making Cortinas there, although quality did impprove according to those who worked there. apprently the Cortina bodies where of much rougher panel fit and required alot of lead to fill unsightly gaps, etc (check a TE Cortina out closely and you'll see alot of lead in the panel gaps and corners). As a result of the larger number of Cortinas they built, the employees got used to this rough method of assembly and were less inclined to put the French cars together the way they supposed to be, although I disagree with anyone who claims the Australian built 504s, R12s, etc were below average quality for the time. Anyone who's owned a mid 1970's Corolla will know how the interior door handles break easily and the bodies rust like crazy.

Dave
 
Seat Vinyl....I dunno Simon, I think the dark brown was a really dud batch or a dud local supplier. I have looked at a lot of 12's and 16's and it's the only colour from the mid 70's that really falls apart, rather than just cracking and then tearing it often looks like it is totally deconstructing itself. Having said that the door trims are usually OK. Maybe a different material or less direct light. dance cheers!
 
I know I'm getting old, but I didn't think the old altzheimers (I think I've forgotten how to spell it) mallet has yet fully clicked in. Thinking about it, I can remember selling a new Virage to a guy from Surfers (who owned a DS) for his daughter. He wouldn't buy a sedan because he wouldn't cop local assembly so he settled for a wagon which was fully imported at that time. I'm not saying that all Virage wagons were imported, but I know for sure that one was; often these manufacturers will bring a batch in particularly if they are starting on a new model run & as was the case in those days, to create the good impression and often as an incentive to "gee up" the dealers. I can't say that I ever heard of an imported sedan though.

Alan S
 
Alan S:
Stuey,

I can only compare Jap stuff with Aussie build back in the 60's and 70s.
The Aussie colour schemes were different which was a pity. The colours the Japs used were more softer and seemed to suit the cars better than the Aussie colours which were more "in your face" as regards tonings. A green, paler than that used on this site was called "Spring green" and suited the early Corona & 4 cylinder Crowns well but was replaced by a Turquiose and a Dark Green (almost BGR). The Jap white had an almost slight creamy look whereas the Aussie white was stark & looked as though it was painted in white wash in someones backyard eek!
When we had Jap imports, we rarely if ever had to do touch ups and the like unless it was to repair the repairs the distributors had been forced to do often caused by "Wharfies" walking across bonnets or turrets to show their contempt for Japanese & anything associated with them - nice bastards

The upholstery on the local stuff was again different in colour & texture and where it lacked in comfort through being a bit stiff, if gained in durability. Panel fit was pretty average on the local stuff and problems with tyres whilst unheard of on imported stuff was common in local stuff.
I know the Japs eventually insisted on putting a few of their own in at AMI in the finish to try to improve the standards but with little effect and eventually went back to importing until they got it all sorted out.
I don't think the assembly plants in any country can match "head office" no matter how they try for several reasons not the least of which is the insistence of various Governments (ours has been notorious for it) of setting a percentage of local content without any stipulations on the quality of that content. clown

Alan S whip
Click to expand...
I'm surprised at how much of this post is devoted to colours and incidentals when build quality is, in my opinion, more related to making a car that will last and which fits together properly.

Renault Australia also assembled Peugeots for a number of years, and during those years the rustability of the cars was amply well demonstrated. And it continued during the JRA period of local assembly... I'm apalled at the early 505's propensity to rust out.

The reason for JRA taking Pugs on, of course, was that there was a quota system for imported makes then, where the sales tax was levied on a sliding scale and the quotas were pegged at the level of sales the year prior to (or of) the new rule's introduction.

There were levels of local content required depending on volume too, as I recall... or to do with the taxation level, I'm not sure which... anyway, JRA had a nice quota available from when they were selling Dolomites. Dolomites were dropped, 505s were the same engine capacity class and took their place on the assembly lines.
 
Ray,

The reason colours have played such a part is that in the trade, that was the simplest way of identifying them :D

Alan S
 
Ray Bell
[QB][
Renault Australia also assembled Peugeots for a number of years, and during those years the rustability of the cars was amply well demonstrated. And it continued during the JRA period of local assembly... I'm apalled at the early 505's propensity to rust out..[QB]
Click to expand...
I don't think this problem was confined to any one manufacturer or factory in those days. When you think about it there were very few cars that didn't rust like crazy in those days. Late Australian assembled 504s are actually pretty good as far as rust gos when compared with Corollas, 200B's, Falcons and many other cars of the period. Actually I've been surprised at how rust free the 504s at Pick & Payless wreckers have been, considering their age and otherwise sad state of repair.

Dave
 
Alan S:
Ray,

The reason colours have played such a part is that in the trade, that was the simplest way of identifying them...
Click to expand...
Why did you have to identify them?

Actually, I see little about identification or quality at all in the first part of your post, just statements about what colours the cars were painted and comparing those colours to other cars.

If you were talking about the paint flaking, that would be different.
 
Ray Bell

I'm surprised at how much of this post is devoted to colours and incidentals when build quality is, in my opinion, more related to making a car that will last and which fits together properly.
Click to expand...
That's really what I meant. Aside from the panel gaps, which admittedly was pretty standard in those days for volume cars, I've noticed that funny 'hard chewing gum' stuff around the body wherever there may have been a gap. It's not filler, nor is it soft. Weird. Like a bodge, but definitely factory. For those that know 12's. look in the corners of the front suspension tower brace and you'll know what I mean.

Like I say, I don't care too much, but was just wondering about French build v Aussie.

Stuey
 
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