drop it in the boot like the cx and see if I can split it with the auto clima already in the car
Air conditioning a D in the tropics
- Thread starter Citquery
- Start date
FWIW, I've had D's go 100K+ miles in Arizona with the factory setup, which drives everything from the cam chain. It's the water pump front bearing that usually fails every 40K miles...
Agreed. Note the reinforced pulley in my photograph.
They have always had that much stuff hanging from the camshaft , but with this set up the water pump does not suffer the high loads to drive a compressor .
Also the new rotary compressors are much easier to drive and with out the big shock loading of the old York piston comp.
Well not really, when the camshaft system was designed I'm sure the engineers never envisaged a setup like that.
The long stroke engines originally had a single belt to the hydraulic pump, and two for the generator/ coolant pump.
The generator had a plain rear bearing so the belts were run quite slack. The 6v generator only put out 32A (200w) and the Slough 12v Lucas only 22A
Of course the ID19 was even less.... just the generator/ coolant.
The short stroke design was not much more rigid, however the tensioner was added to the chain drive.
Off course it can be done, but the reduction of life to the chain and various bearings is significant.
I guess it shows how the original design worked, and subsequent changes rarely improved on it.
The cabin ventilation, both fresh air and heating was much better in the early DS19.
Then as the engine grew, so did the heat output, cabin air ducts and vents got smaller and the engine bay airflow was restricted, and then everything that you did to provide comfort, in fact made the situation worse. Firewall insulation reduced engine bay airflow even more.
Aircon added to the heat load.
The result was that a late model DS23 with aircon was probably no more comfortable than an early DS19.
On behalf of Michael, the new owner of my former '74 DS23, thanks for all your suggestions, everyone. There's a lot of food for thought in the preceding 19 posts.
Buttercup Bob, as I said in my opening post, I removed the air conditioner from the car for a couple of reasons, one being my concern about driving the compressor - especially the old York unit - via the timing chain and camshaft. I had wondered about driving the compressor from a well supported (as in bearings) transmission shaft, but I don't think that's feasible with the BW35 transmission fitted to this car.
Electric-powered compressors don't seem to be very popular - not least because of the efficiency losses - but I wonder whether a more constant load (i.e. alternator charging the battery) would be less demanding on the camshaft drivetrain than the mechanically driven compressor, especially as it cuts in and out...or is my logic flawed?
Chris
Buttercup Bob, as I said in my opening post, I removed the air conditioner from the car for a couple of reasons, one being my concern about driving the compressor - especially the old York unit - via the timing chain and camshaft. I had wondered about driving the compressor from a well supported (as in bearings) transmission shaft, but I don't think that's feasible with the BW35 transmission fitted to this car.
Electric-powered compressors don't seem to be very popular - not least because of the efficiency losses - but I wonder whether a more constant load (i.e. alternator charging the battery) would be less demanding on the camshaft drivetrain than the mechanically driven compressor, especially as it cuts in and out...or is my logic flawed?
Chris
Hello, in the sweltering UK I hung the Sanden from the mounting lug on the water pump housing (usually used for the BVH) and ran it from the third groove of a BVH pulley. The condenser is in front of the radiator. This is on my DSuper5.
On my Safari, the condenser is going in the well used by the strapontins, sucking air from underneath, over the condenser and back out underneath using a large fan. The compressor is again, hanging from the water pump housing.
Although the Sanden runs quite slowly, it still gets cold enough in the cabin.
On my Safari, the condenser is going in the well used by the strapontins, sucking air from underneath, over the condenser and back out underneath using a large fan. The compressor is again, hanging from the water pump housing.
Although the Sanden runs quite slowly, it still gets cold enough in the cabin.
Also, one should consider using HC12 as the refrigerant. It has better thermal properties than even good old R12, which means lower condenser pressures and less load on the compressor. I have used it in Arizona, where we see 40C+ pretty regularly and it does a splendid job. Yes it is an inflammable mixture of propane and isobutane but you only have about 1/4 Kg in the whole system.
That looks really interesting. Can you let us know where you got it all from. It looks like it is designed to use existing ventilation outlets?
Your logic isn't flawed. It's a problem of finding an alt big enough that a) physically fits and b) won't suck the engine down to pre-war Traction levels of power when that system kicks on. Your battery is for two purposes only: starting the car, and acting as an accumulator/capacitor. Once the car is running, the alternator takes over all functions of a car.
all from our trusty Chinese friends on Alibaba it may or may not arrive and could be could or maybe shit that's the risk dealing with the Chinese
Does HC-12 (a) require a special compressor oil?
I am currently setting up a DS21 using some older R-12 Coolaire components. I'm still gathering components for this project.
I recently purchased a set of new 'Made in America' under bumper condensers I found on USA e-bay.
These appear to be an almost exact replacement for the '70's vintage Coolaire condensers. The new condensers have more rows in the finned box.
I plan to use a Sanden SD 508 compressor mounted onto a tall style transmission Coolaire mount, so a right side install (I have a LHD US model), and plan (maybe?) to use a single vee belt onto a three grove water pump pully, and a tension pully. I'm planning to use the available York to Sanden adaptor at the bracket.
I have an older article by Ed Noriega who presents a method of using a long V belt from Condenser to camshaft pulley, returning by the bottom of the hydraulic pump pulley that makes sense.
Also, I would like to ask, will I need to replace the older expansion valve on the older Coolaire evaporator with a more modern expansion valve?
Thanks in advance.
HC12 is compatible with petroleum oil and, it is actually compatible with PAG oil also (unlike R12 which will form acid if exposed to PAG oil). Thermostatic expansion valves (TEVs) are pretty much the same today as 40 years ago. IIRC the Coolaire unit uses a standard Four Seasons Internally Balanced TEV, which is pretty inexpensive so you can replace it if you have any concern about it being inoperative or dirty. (The evaporator is certainly easer to clean if the TEV is removed.) I remember Ed Noriega's setup. I think it drives the compressor at half speed, so depending on where you live, you may not get adequate cooling in traffic.
That's an interesting point. Does it put more strain on the cam chain if a compressor pulley is driven directly from the cam pulley - rather than driven from a secondary pulley? Or is the point here that any additional pulley under the bonnet is one too many?
My point is that through the progressive devolution of the DS more and more stuff was driven via the cam chain.
I don't differentiate between things driven from the cam pulley directly, and those driven from the hydraulic pump, which is driven by the cam pulley, and those driven from the alternator pulley which is driven by the bobbin rewinder, which is driven by the coolant pump, which is driven by the centrifugal separator, which is driven by the gravel crusher, which is driven from the eccentric wobulator, which is driven from the cam pulley which is driven by the cam chain.
It doesn't matter how you arrange the belts, all the energy is delivered by the cam chain which was designed to lift valves, circulate coolant, generate about 250w of electrical power, and generate about 250w of hydraulic power.
Total load may have been about 1kw.
Thus...... in proposing an alternate energy delivery system, I was looking for a source of rotary motion powered by the engine and accessible without major modifications.
It seems logical to look at the crankshaft which rotates at twice cam rpm, and has 2 ends, both possibly accessible.
The forward end is at the crank handle input at the front of the gearbox, and a minor mod could arrange a compressor drive directly co-axial, which is preferred for low maintenance and low energy loss. The only slight downside of this location is that it is not driven when the clutch is disengaged and the car is stationary. With the car stationary in neutral, and the clutch engaged it will operate.
The rear end of the crankshaft could also be accessible, again with a direct co-axial drive, if a housing was created in a centre console at at the rear face of the firewall.
Yes, this is a bit theoretical, but I'm just trying to encourage those that are so determined to put aircon in a D, to explore alternatives that could give a better result.
In designing Vee belt drive systems, we generally allow for an energy loss of between 5 and 8%, through friction which ends up as heat.
A well designed co-axial drive will have very close to zero energy loss and therefore create less heat load.
And your cam chain will last a lot longer.
BB
Thanks for all comments to my earlier post. I am making moves to pick up a Sander compressor, and chose their current model 4875. This is a seven wobble piston compressor in their SD7H15 family. It will come with the newer rear GV (backfaced) head plate, with a single 1/2 groove pulley/electric clutch. I plan to use an older Coolaire transmission mounted vertical bracket and braces as vintage of 1970's, topped with a York to Sanden mount, and use a single belt run off the three groove water pump, with a tension pulley. I know this is not ideal but this install will match what method was installed by USA dealers back in the early '70's, and will reuse many of the parts I have on hand. I do not intend to use the a/c feature much as I live in New England USA. This car will not be a daily driver. I am prepared to maintain the three groove rebuilt water pump (this has been modified with a new larger bearing), the timing chain and tensioner (I have these parts in a planned upcoming re-clutch/maintenance project), and will reinforce the cam pulley as this car goes forward.
I have plans to remove the older expansion valve and replace it with a modern unit, I will place all new hoses and use beadlock fittings compatible with R134-a, service ports and o-ring types. I plan to place the binary cutout on the drier, which in this installation will be mid stream on the returning hose from the second (right side) under wing condenser on it's path to the expansion valve at the under dash evaporator.
I am looking for an Coolaire plastic under wing condenser fan shroud if anyone has a spare. I have one of two.
Meanwhile, Happy Motorin' to all.
I have plans to remove the older expansion valve and replace it with a modern unit, I will place all new hoses and use beadlock fittings compatible with R134-a, service ports and o-ring types. I plan to place the binary cutout on the drier, which in this installation will be mid stream on the returning hose from the second (right side) under wing condenser on it's path to the expansion valve at the under dash evaporator.
I am looking for an Coolaire plastic under wing condenser fan shroud if anyone has a spare. I have one of two.
Meanwhile, Happy Motorin' to all.
Andre Pol has reproduction shrouds and fans.
Thanks for sharing. My air conditioner broke down a year ago in the summer. It was awful. I didn't know what to do. The air conditioner was five years old, and I was not very upset even thinking about buying a new air conditioner. I decided to tell my mom about it, but when I told my mom about it, my dad was in the same room with us, and he jumped up and said that he would fix it himself. But it didn't work out and then I decided to contact the service. I turned to these guys airconservicingsingapore.com, and they did everything for me very quickly and most importantly efficiently.
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I completed (almost) the fitting of an older Coolaire air conditioning evaporator into my 1970 DS 21. This is the long under the dash 17172 unit with four rectangular vents sold by Coolaire of Florida about 1971, and no longer in business.
I set up a new Sanden SD7H15 compressor on a modified transmission mount upright, also previously sold by Coolaire. I mounted twin under the front bumper condensers sold by a Texas firm on eBay USA, and had to make some new surrounding pieces out of fiberglass to surround these condensers, to complete the assemblies.
I used all reduced barrier size hoses, with new o-ring beadlock fittings where possible. I charged it up with R134-a refrigerant. And it works well. Its blowing out at 39 degrees Fahrenheit.
I still have a couple issues to address. I believe the Sanden pulley has an inside angle for an A v-belt, than the angle Citroen uses on it's water pump pulley.
Sanden uses an aluminum pulley machined for an A belt interior angle of 36 degrees. I believe my set up causes the belt to slip on the water pump pulley, when the compressor gets fully loaded. I used a TopCog belt made by Dayco and sold as an A type belt.
Can someone confirm the proper interior angle of the standard the Citroen pulley? I recently heard mentioned proper v-belts for Citroen should be "Poly Form" belts? I may have the wrong description. I believe the interior angle of the water pump pulley does not match the standard A type belt.
I also need to source a better idler pulley set up to give better belt tension. I know, as discussed previously, I do not want to put too much tension on the water pump bearings.
Any ideas are welcomed.
Happy Motorin'
PaulE in RI
I set up a new Sanden SD7H15 compressor on a modified transmission mount upright, also previously sold by Coolaire. I mounted twin under the front bumper condensers sold by a Texas firm on eBay USA, and had to make some new surrounding pieces out of fiberglass to surround these condensers, to complete the assemblies.
I used all reduced barrier size hoses, with new o-ring beadlock fittings where possible. I charged it up with R134-a refrigerant. And it works well. Its blowing out at 39 degrees Fahrenheit.
I still have a couple issues to address. I believe the Sanden pulley has an inside angle for an A v-belt, than the angle Citroen uses on it's water pump pulley.
Sanden uses an aluminum pulley machined for an A belt interior angle of 36 degrees. I believe my set up causes the belt to slip on the water pump pulley, when the compressor gets fully loaded. I used a TopCog belt made by Dayco and sold as an A type belt.
Can someone confirm the proper interior angle of the standard the Citroen pulley? I recently heard mentioned proper v-belts for Citroen should be "Poly Form" belts? I may have the wrong description. I believe the interior angle of the water pump pulley does not match the standard A type belt.
I also need to source a better idler pulley set up to give better belt tension. I know, as discussed previously, I do not want to put too much tension on the water pump bearings.
Any ideas are welcomed.
Happy Motorin'
PaulE in RI