Hoogy's DS 23 Pallas

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Hoogy's recent ebay purchase...

Hi Froggers,

First time caller, long time listener.
I'm very excited to say I am the new owner of the DS 23 Pallas:banana:. Just got it home last night on the back of a flatbed and yes all quarter panels and doors do need a bit of work and that's fine. The engine runs well but the car doesn't rise and the brakes don't work because the steering rack needs re-conditioning:(. I've downloaded the shop manuals and read the blow by blow on this forum as well so I am going to attempt pulling it out.
Question is, once I have it in my greasy little hands can I re-condition it myself. It seems like it needs quite a few specialty tools. I called French Connection who are local to me but he's not working on DS's any more because of a lack of parts.
Any advice will be appreciated and also thanks to the advice and guidance of Rev Dogboy who has been very gracious in replying to all my emails.
 
If there is a huge problem with the rack, then as a test of the rest of the hydraulics, you could isolate it by making up a dummy plate for the hydraulic connection. There are a few connections on the DS that are a steel plate sandwich with sealing o-rings. Try making up a blanking steel plate and add it to the rack side of the sandwich fitting. That will give you some idea about the rest of the hydraulics vs the rack.
 
Yes, I have encountered one situation where someone unaware of the system had tightened down the valves on the rotating union and so the rack never got a look in, the fluid ran staight back to the reservoir.
You can recon the rack yourself, I have done several BUT
by now most have them have be reconed once and perhaps twice and are not easy to do again because it is no longer a simple case of changing seals.
There is only one special mechanical tool needed, to undo the nut on the piston. I made one up. You will need a fitting and gauges to set up and test the cross over pressures. Again I made one and it is probably still in the NSW Club tool stock. If the valves are worn, lapping in new pistons is not for the faint hearted and best to get a recon unit.
My preferred source for these and rebuilt racks is Citrogaz but with the postal charges these days it is not a cheap way to go.
http://www.citrogaz.com/

Once in the rack, if it has been left standing and unused for a long period you may well find that the centre of the cylinder is badly pitted. Also the piston could have corroded. If either is the case you are facing some precision engineering to resleeve the cylinder or rechrome the piston and I would consider it a throw away item.
If the cylinder is perfect, requiring a little or no honing then your next challenge is to get a set of seals.
My Indian friends made up several sets but had a lot of difficulty identifying the materials to copy them. They don't come straight out of a hydraulics parts catalogue. Again Michel at Citrogaz can advise on current supplies.
Note that there are two diameters of cylinder, the early ones were smaller and the parts as rare as hen's teeth.
Good luck!
 
Nick Cascanis formerly Cars Of France now Darebin Tyre & Service Fairfield knows this car and has previously serviced it. I know this because I know the people you bought the car from.
 
Roger Parker at Oleopneumatics is worth speaking to about a rack reco as he has a test bed to ensure it's OK. I believe a straight overhaul and test is something like $700, but if it needs a new rotating coupling add the best part of another $1K apparently.
 
Yes, I have encountered one situation where someone unaware of the system had tightened down the valves on the rotating union and so the rack never got a look in, the fluid ran staight back to the reservoir.
You can recon the rack yourself, I have done several BUT
by now most have them have be reconed once and perhaps twice and are not easy to do again because it is no longer a simple case of changing seals.
There is only one special mechanical tool needed, to undo the nut on the piston. I made one up. You will need a fitting and gauges to set up and test the cross over pressures. Again I made one and it is probably still in the NSW Club tool stock. If the valves are worn, lapping in new pistons is not for the faint hearted and best to get a recon unit.
My preferred source for these and rebuilt racks is Citrogaz but with the postal charges these days it is not a cheap way to go.
http://www.citrogaz.com/

Once in the rack, if it has been left standing and unused for a long period you may well find that the centre of the cylinder is badly pitted. Also the piston could have corroded. If either is the case you are facing some precision engineering to resleeve the cylinder or rechrome the piston and I would consider it a throw away item.
If the cylinder is perfect, requiring a little or no honing then your next challenge is to get a set of seals.
My Indian friends made up several sets but had a lot of difficulty identifying the materials to copy them. They don't come straight out of a hydraulics parts catalogue. Again Michel at Citrogaz can advise on current supplies.
Note that there are two diameters of cylinder, the early ones were smaller and the parts as rare as hen's teeth.
Good luck!



Gerry is the site under construction? I can't get to their parts department:confused:

Maby it's because im iliterate in French:rolleyes: Translator is on though...

Cheers
Corne
 
Thank you all for the suggestions.
First thing I'll try is to isolate the steering unit as David suggests but apparently Nick from Cars of France has sorted the suspension. I'm going to have a talk to him to see if he can remember exactly what he did (he's a friend of a friend).
I will have a look on the weekend and will follow the steps in the shop manual (against my usual inclination to just start pulling things apart and see what happens).:)
I'll make a judgement once I get in there as to what to do next. Stand by for the photos of a once proud Pallas reduced to some (well ordered) parts.
 
The steering is not the issue. If the car will not rise and the brakes will not operate it is because there is no pressure (or very little) coming from the pressure regulator. This could be just a simple problem of the bleed circuit being open or the little ball bearing that shuts off the flow to the by-pass circuit in the pressure regulator having gone missing because someone removed the shut off nut. OTOH if one can shut off the the by-pass flow from the regulator and still no pressure build up, then the pump has gone south - well in your case north as you cannot get much more south that you already are :)

The other possibility is that the reservoir filter is so dirty that no fluid, or very little, can get into the system.

Steve in California
 
The steering is not the issue. If the car will not rise and the brakes will not operate it is because there is no pressure (or very little) coming from the pressure regulator. This could be just a simple problem of the bleed circuit being open or the little ball bearing that shuts off the flow to the by-pass circuit in the pressure regulator having gone missing because someone removed the shut off nut. OTOH if one can shut off the the by-pass flow from the regulator and still no pressure build up, then the pump has gone south - well in your case north as you cannot get much more south that you already are :)

The other possibility is that the reservoir filter is so dirty that no fluid, or very little, can get into the system.

Steve in California

I looked at this car and it has a reasonable hydraulic leak but without a hoist and not much LHM to waste I couldn't locate the source however fixing the leak would be the first step...then bleed system
The rack was already identified by Nick of cars of France as being in need of an overhaul...
cheers
 
The system is basically devoid of any LHM.

Does anyone have any idea how much I will need to find the source of the leak.

The car came with a small bottle of LHM. Also where are Melbourne Froggers buying their LHM?


Thanks,

John.
 
Step 1
Clean the entire area of the engine bay particularly the left side. Meticulously clean the hydraulic return lines and all the fittings.
Clean the pressure regulator and its large rubber return line.

Look for any oil stains along the sides of the chassis and in the area of both the brakes and the suspension units both front and rear.
Clean in petrol, the green plastic filter assembly attached to the suction pipe for the hydraulic pump which comes from the reservoir.

Step 2
Buy 4 litres of LHM, if you're not in a club, then Bursons can buy in Penrite LHM+. Buy 4 litres at least.

Step3
Put at least 2 litres of LHM in the reservoir and open the bleeed screw on the pressure regulator. 12mm ring spanner preferable.

Step4
Start the car.
Look for the leak, probably on the left side.
Then look in the areas previously mentioned in Step1.

Step5
If the leak can't be located, or there is no leak present, do up (nip up only, NOT tight,tight!) the pressure regualtor bleed screw and look again.
Your leak will present itself if not internal.
If an internal leak, then that's a different procedure.

Follow these steps and then read again what Citroenfan had to say and follow his advice.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Richo,

Good advice and that's exactly what I'll do. I've just filled out the paperwork to become a member of the club so I'll have to wait a couple of weekends to check the system since I won't have access to LHM this weekend and am away next weekend. Maybe I can take the front guards off instead and start pulling out some of the dents at the same time.

Cheers.
 
I'd be tempted to put the cheapest ATF in it i can find until I'd fixed all the leaks. If it *isn't* leaking badly though, this could work out more expensive as you'd have to flush it probably twice with LHM to remove all the traces of ATF. I'm still contemplating if I should put Dexron in the ID19 here to use it as a flush (it appears to be full of detergents).

Remember mineral fluids won't hurt LHM hydraulics (though there certainly not designed to run them for any length of time)

seeya,
Shane L.
 
If you need LHM in a hurry, Penrite sell it in 2.5 litre bottles, so any place with a good range of Penrite products may have it on the shelf. European Auto Imports carry Bendix brand LHM at about $12 per litre, so that's another option for you.

It's probably not a great idea to let the LHM pump run dry.
 
Yep, Bursons in Heidelberg has 2.5 litres Penrite left. I'll swing by after work to get it.

I guess it's OK to mix different brands of LHM?
 
yeah, i hope your sitting down when you see the price of bursons LHM though (I think they must stock it for rolls royce owners.... who don't look at the price tag).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
If the system is devoid of fluid then that is the reason you have no suspension or brakes. At this point the hydraulic system is now full of air. Follow Richo's advice about the quanity of fluid to put in the reservoir.

I will only add the following. With the bleed screw open about 1 turn start the engine and let the pump/pr expel entrapped air back into the reservoir for about 2 minutes. While this is going on open the fill port on the reservoir and look inside with a light. You should be able to see fluid issuing for a curved steel tube via the anti-siphon hole.

Tighten the bleed screw til just snug. When you do this you should both hear the pump change sound (pumping under pressure) and the fluid that was issuing from the anti-siphon hole should now have stopped. If neither of the above happens it means the pressure regulator has a problem with the by-pass circuit. If fluid does stop issuing from that little hole, but the car will not come up to pressure (pressure light off) then the most likely cause is a bad pump.

Steve
 
If the system is devoid of fluid then that is the reason you have no suspension or brakes. At this point the hydraulic system is now full of air. Follow Richo's advice about the quanity of fluid to put in the reservoir.

I will only add the following. With the bleed screw open about 1 turn start the engine and let the pump/pr expel entrapped air back into the reservoir for about 2 minutes. While this is going on open the fill port on the reservoir and look inside with a light. You should be able to see fluid issuing for a curved steel tube via the anti-siphon hole.

Tighten the bleed screw til just snug. When you do this you should both hear the pump change sound (pumping under pressure) and the fluid that was issuing from the anti-siphon hole should now have stopped. If neither of the above happens it means the pressure regulator has a problem with the by-pass circuit. If fluid does stop issuing from that little hole, but the car will not come up to pressure (pressure light off) then the most likely cause is a bad pump.

Steve

should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??
 
should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??

Makes no difference, the height lever only effect the pressure is the suspension, not the pump/regulator pressure. as soon as you open the bleed screw, the fluid pumps through the pump, into the regulator and back to the tank. So the setting of anything "hydraulic" on the car isn't relevant :)

seeya
Shane L.
 
should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??

The only way to depressurise the hydraulic system is via the bleed screw at the pressure regulator which is what I have outlined in my suggested procedure.

The low position of the height lever will only succeed in depressurising the suspension system, which in this case is unlikely to be of benefit, given the unknown condition of the rest of the system.

Hope this explains.
 
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