In trouble again- DS electrics!

T

tresbon

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Fellow Frogger
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Hi guys, I have another problem with the electrics.

My DS21bvh is supposed to be a late 1970 model. I have factory and Autobook W/S manuals but neither show a wiring diagram with the 8 fuses which my car has. The Autobook manual has a wiring diagram for cars 'since Sept. 1969' showing 4 fuses only. Otherwise it appears to cover my car quite well.

However my car has obviously been modified over the years, with a remote solenoid for the starter fed via a generic relay. I understand that my model would have originally had a starter with attached solenoid, so it appears that it has been 'upgraded' to an earlier system! The relay has 4 terminals, 2 connected to the main cable from the battery, one connected to the small solenoid terminal and one to a wire leading back to the battery area. This last is obviously (?) to supply the power from the starter switch. Before I started playing around under the bonnet it was connected, via a very crude piece of wiring, to a wire coming out of the loom. This wire broke off at the loom, so I connected another wire and then connected that to the wire from the relay. It was now as before or so I thought.
However, operating the starter switch brought no response, so I checked this wire, expecting it to have no power. To my surprise it has 12v at all times. So it cannot be powered from the starter switch or that switch is faulty or ????

To complicate matters, the original voltage regulator (which I think incorporated a relay) has been replaced by by a rather ancient looking solid state device. This has only 2 connections, not the 4 on the original, hence there are 2 unattached wires from the adjacent loom. (I assume that the relay connected to the starter solenoid has replaced the relay in the regulator?)

I guess that my next move is to trace the wire from the starter switch to - where-ever it finishes.

Not helping in all this is that a lot of the ends of the original wiring have been replaced with modern crimped on connectors - hence the color-coded ends are no longer there on the black wires!

Not relevant to this starting problem I notice that 2 Sanor relays on the battery sideplate are not connected to anything.

I would appreciated if anyone could provide a copy of the wiring diagram with the 8 fuses or advise where to find it.

Don
 
DS electrics

I have also suffered for many years with the lousy diagrams in the manuals..

In a similar request from me some months ago, I got a reply from Hotrod Electric in the US.
MOST helpful! It seems that the Oz cars are similar to the German ones.

I'll send you a PDF that will answer to at least some of your problems (late night TV ads seem to be able to solve any other problems you may have... ! )

SKP
 
Based on an other 1970 BVH I've fiddled with, the remote starter relay could be original. On a 1975 DS23 that did have the solenoids at the starter, there is a second wire wrapped to the starter lead to operate the solenoid.
 
If your description is correct, the relay is wired incorrectly. It should have one wire going to the positive terminal on the battery not two.

The wiring should be

1 from the battery
1 form the starter switch
1 to the starter solenoid
1 to earth

In operation the lead from the battery is connected to one of the contacts in the relay, the lead to the starter the other. The lead from the starter switch is to one side of the coil, and the other side of the coil is earthed. When you hit the starter switch, current flows through the coil, the magnetic field created attracts the contact arm which shorts the contacts together so current flows from the battery direct to the starter.

Be careful though, if you have two leads coming from the battery it would be easy to short things out which could be catastrophic for the wiring.

Greg
 
DS electrics

Thanks Greg -

I agree that having the 2 terminals of the relay connected to the positive battery terminal does not seem right. However that is how it was when I got the car and it started normally! I need to check but it is likely/must be that the relay is earthed to it's mounting bracket.

I will keep trying to work this out. Don
 
Hi Don-

Sorry I hadn't responded sooner, but I just spent the last 2 1/2 weeks in the hospital, so I missed you the last time around. Let's see if we can get past your problem.

First all, a '70 BVM car would indicate that you should have the starter with a solenoid. However, your BVH car should have the seperate solenoid on the battery. Your start switch, which is a ground output, is the one mounted on the shift lever. All of the cars, from '69 and back, had the solenoid mounted on the battery, regardless of BVM or BVH. It sounds like what someone has attempted to do was make a very sloppy '69-style start circuit on your car. The reason for the relay was to flop the ground signal to a power out, and from there to the solenoid, which is your battery+ to the starter.

On your regulator, there should be two internal relays- one powering the charge lamp, the other controlling voltage. The actual ground source for the start switch comes off of the charge lamp relay. What this was intended for was prevent someone from trying to restart the car once it was running by taking away the switch ground once the charge lamp was out. There are 4 connections, as you saw- The R (rotor), which should be white, and connects to rotor (the small connection) on the back of your alternator- that is, if you still have your original Paris Rhone or Ducellier unit. There is the EXC (basically switches the unit on) connection, which is yellow and goes to your alternator, the L (light), with a red sleeve, which is your charge lamp, and BOB (ignition), which switches on the regulator. It is purple, and is also the only 1/4" spade connector of the bunch.

Both the start switch ground and the light come off of the L connection. The ground wire will show as brown at the start switch. The other wire will show as white off the switch, and red at the solenoid.

Now that you have all that crammed into your brain, do you know what alternator and regulator you have? We might be able clear stuff up once I know all that, especially if you decide to continue with the pre-'70 starter.


:cheers:
 
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By the way- the two Sanor relays are nothing attached to the start circuit. They're I think for the auxiliary turning lamps, or possibly the A/C.
 
Hi Bill

Glad to hear you are up and about again!! Hospital is a horrible place!! Good luck on the recovery.

Thanks for this explanation, I Have a similar problem with my 1971 DS21 IE BVH. No battery or STOP lights when ignition is ON then suddenly a audible click from the voltage regulator then the lights are on, very intermittent.

Also no start with the lever only a vaguely glowy battery light no proper Earth!!!

I think you solved my problem:D

Sorry for posting on your post tresbon, but to make a similar post is a waste!!

Thanks

Best of luck Bill

Corne
 
Hi Corne-

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for the well wishes. I was pretty lucky as far as a hospital stay happens- doctors who actually gave a damn, a terriffic nursing staff, even the food was overall decent.

Getting on to your car, your problem may be different- you describe the regulator working only intermittently? Try re-grounding the regulator base to earth. Maybe even run a test lead from the regulator base to battery ground, and see if that improves things. If the wiring is in OK (unmolested) shape, you *may* have to replace the regulator. Will the car start OK if you use the start button at the bottom of the solenoid?

:cheers:
 
I think the nurses had to be eye candy, that's why you got better:D Just joking.


Bill probably the regulator works intermittently, because you say the one relay in the voltage regulator triggers the charge light, and it looks to me it also triggers the STOP and all 3 "red " lights too.


I grounded the voltage regulator with extra leads to the negative terminal and to the body, nothing still the intermittent CLICK then charge and other red lights on, just as suddenly as it came on it goes away, and again the audible click.

Car starter turns when I press the button, but I installed an extra wire from the starter solenoid to the starter relay on the battery like on my south african built DS (who doesn't have the battery starter relay) which is wrong I believe, but without that wire it was impossible to operate the starter with the starting lever (BVH), but after reading your previous post to tresbon I realised there is no earth to the starter solenoid on the battery, that's why I needed the extra wire from the starter solenoid on the starter to the one on the battery:nownow:


I am going to fit an earth wire from the battery starter solenoid to the body or negative terminal, maby the starter will operate with the lever then?

But still the battery and stop light and redlights doesn't work, maby it's a faulty battery charge light relay inside the voltage regulator like you said it could possibly be.

I have to get this sorted to be able to start the EFI battle again which is still unsolved

Thanks
Corne
 
I have to get this sorted to be able to start the EFI battle again which is still unsolved
Click to expand...

Hi Corne,
I have the DS23 EFI and have had issues with it and found this book at www.amazon.com it's ISBN number (which you can search by) is 0-87938-570-7 it should be a big help in getting the EFI sorted out as its for the D-Jetronic among other things.
They have used ones from US$26.95

Just went and got the link for you, easier.
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Bosch-...5707/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1313926279&sr=8-8

Good luck

Colin
 
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book

Hi Corne,
it's very easy to follow and from it you will know how to get the fuel pump sorted out as well as finding out if the ECU is the cause.
From what the book says it's unlikely it's the ECU as you will find out when you read it.

Hope to hear it's all up and running soon.

Cheers
 
If it's not the ECU then instead of eating my hat, I will make it the car I spend the most money on out of all my DS's and make it concourse condition

corne
 
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elle va!

Hotrodelectric, thanks for all that.

I now have it starting - a great advance. My voltage regulator is a 'foreign' solid state device with only 2 terminals to the original Paris-Rhone alternator. The other 2 terminals are not connected to anything, so the dashboard light is not working. But I am grateful that it now starts.
The car came to me with an original regulator, amongst other parts, and the previous owner was told by the man he purchased it from that the parts were all OK. So when I have attended to more pressing matters I may fit it. I will get it checked first though.

thanks again to everyone - what a great site with so many helpful people.

Don
 
CorneSoutAfrica said:
I think the nurses had to be eye candy, that's why you got better:D Just joking.


Bill probably the regulator works intermittently, because you say the one relay in the voltage regulator triggers the charge light, and it looks to me it also triggers the STOP and all 3 "red " lights too.


I grounded the voltage regulator with extra leads to the negative terminal and to the body, nothing still the intermittent CLICK then charge and other red lights on, just as suddenly as it came on it goes away, and again the audible click.

Car starter turns when I press the button, but I installed an extra wire from the starter solenoid to the starter relay on the battery like on my south african built DS (who doesn't have the battery starter relay) which is wrong I believe, but without that wire it was impossible to operate the starter with the starting lever (BVH), but after reading your previous post to tresbon I realised there is no earth to the starter solenoid on the battery, that's why I needed the extra wire from the starter solenoid on the starter to the one on the battery:nownow:


I am going to fit an earth wire from the battery starter solenoid to the body or negative terminal, maby the starter will operate with the lever then?

But still the battery and stop light and redlights doesn't work, maby it's a faulty battery charge light relay inside the voltage regulator like you said it could possibly be.

I have to get this sorted to be able to start the EFI battle again which is still unsolved

Thanks
Corne
Click to expand...

Hi Corne-

First things first: A few of the nurses really were eye candy. Hellooooooooo, nurse!! :party:

Next up- On your warning lamps not working: the thing to remember is the three lamps that work with the 'stop' lamp have no actual connection to the start circuit. They DO, however have an ignition fed power source that is connected with the battery charge lamp. That is what I would check if your problem came to me. It is what your problem sounds like. Since there is only one power input (at the yellow connector on the cluster, pink color sleeve), check there with a test light and see if you get ignition+. There might be an ignition switch or switch connection problem, since you indicate it's intermittant. Try disconnecting then reconnecting the instrument and switch connectors a couple or three times. Simple corrosion can cause your problem.

Manual 814-1 is your best buddy here.

Don't fit a wire from the solenoid direct to ground- you will effectively have the starter running continuously. On your car, being a BVH, there is a two-pin switch mounted at the steerin column, just under the dash. That is your start switch. The brown coded connector is the one from the regulator wiring. You can, at least temporarily, fit a wire from here to direct ground. Remove the original wire first, or your charge light will be on all the time! The other wire is the one that leads out to your solenoid. It is white at the switch, and red at the solenoid. Note that it is a very simple in-out switch, it doesn't matter what leads go where.


:cheers:
 
Hi Bill

Problem half solved!!

It was a dodgy fuse, or rather a dodgy packet of fuses, their soldering inside was the problem, apart from that on this car the +ive live to the regulator (the fuse) is situated clost to the Brain box RHD and not on the side I am used to (the 4 fuse board) closest to the ignition coil.

On my South african built DS the fuses close to the brainbox are for dimms and brights so I didn't take too much notice of this particular fuse... Now my dash lights work, but the battery light is very dimm and when you move the lever to the start position the battery light goes out and no start.

Bill I traced the 2 wires leading to the start switch on the stalk under the dash, There is continuity between the solenoid on the battery and the white sleeve wire, but I've got 10 ohm resistance on the brown sleeved wire:confused:, if I use a separate wire to earth the start switch where the brown sleeve terminal should be then the battery light is bright again and car starts with the lever:crazy:

It seems the earth for the brown sleeve wire is somewhere on the body? because I get continuity but like I said, very high resistance

Tonight I will look again and trace the wire to where it earths

Cheers
Corne
 
Hi Corne-

No- the brown wire does not earth to the body. It, and the wire for the charge lamp from the regulator are spliced together, then go to the regulator at 'L', which is supposed to be marked with a red sleeve. You can remove the brown wire from the start switch, and replace it with a seperate wire which earths to ground, and your starter will work. You do, however lose the anti-repeat function the regulator provides. The 10ohm resistance you're seeing is probably the lamp relay at the regulator, although that is pretty high. Again, corrosion is a very likely suspect, along with a possible nearly broken wire. The reason you see a bright light with an additional ground wire at the start switch is you've offered the lamp a clean pathway to ground. Note that the charge lamp will not go out when you do this, since you've basically bypassed the regulator.

:cheers:
 
Ok thanks Bill I understand

I am going to cut open the loom under the dash, the whole dash is taken off so there is ample work space The splice, will it be a male female connector under the dash or rather a crimped connection ? I did sort of trace the green wire with the brown sleeve and it ends in a male pin connected to the loom going to the rear lights, but to say the truth there is so many brown wires and brown sleeves that you get confused and the worst of all almost in all of that wires there is continuity with the multimeter but 10 ohm resistance. The voltage regulator I used is from "rusty" my other DS and it works perfect in there so it can't be the voltage regulator, just to rule out that thought.

I'll cut open the loom trace the wire to the spliced part and go from there, maby it is a breakage somewhere. All contact points was cleaned and rust or any dirt removed..

I'll let you know as soon as I can get to the car and have a look

Another point,

Remember I needed the extra thin wire that leads from the starter solenoid to the battery mounted solenoid, to switch on the starter? It's because I installed the copper plate on the back of the starter solenoid wrong way round:mad: Now I need to remove the starter to rectify this problem aargh!

Cheers
Corne
 
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