Canola Oil ...

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Real cars have hydraulics
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Hi Guys,

Yep back to this topic again ... Now I know we had problems with DS19's brains and a few other seals when run on canola oil.... But has anyone ever had a problem with ID19;s.??

The reason I ask ?? the stuff doesn't take up water... and it's oil ... so lubricates ... and prevents rust.

I put canola in my ID19 about 10years ago. It got driven for a couple of years... only a few thousand kilometers tops (gee's that club rego scheme was useless as titts on a bull :disappr: ).... Anyway, there is no evidence of seal, boot or rubber degredation on the car anywhere even though it's been soaking in the stuff for 10years.

I reckon this old ID of Rogers I have here, also has a really stinky ancient canola oil in it. Given it was last registered in 1985 ... I think it's been in there " a while". This cars been sitting for at least 25years. When I pulled the front brakes off, the pistons readily pushed back into the bores ... (ie: no seized), there is no evidence of rubber boot or seal failure anywhere on the car (that I've found yet). I'm pretty sure I'll find it's hydraulics are very good as there won't have been moisture in any of the parts for the years it's been parked up.

What are other peoples experience :confused: I was always very suspect of it, however this cars been soaking in the stuff for at least 25years and as far as I can tell, it's actually saved the car from considerable hydraulic problems. :confused:

seeya
Shane L.
 
I doubt that it's canola oil Shane.
Twenty five years ago it would've been known as rape seed oil.
My two bobs worth.
 
richo said:
I doubt that it's canola oil Shane.
Twenty five years ago it would've been known as rape seed oil.
My two bobs worth.
Click to expand...

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: But nobody would buy it, name didn't appeal and the high acid variety didn't taste too good, so they decided to go with an acronym based on "Canadian oil, low acid" in 1978 (Wiki).
 
Ron Boulton said:
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: But nobody would buy it, name didn't appeal and the high acid variety didn't taste too good, so they decided to go with an acronym based on "Canadian oil, low acid" in 1978 (Wiki).
Click to expand...

I've been wondering for years where that "new" name came from! Many thanks. Now to work out where the "old" one started.

No-one's ever mentioned castor oil in this context?
 
Make sure it is not LHM or some other weird fluid.

When I acquired that car, 10 years ago, it had green two-piece spheres. Their diaphragms had gone manky. Who knows what material the diaphragms were made from. Who knows what fluid was in it.

You may need to check and change a number of seals.

Roger
 
Flame proof suit on :burnboun: :trouslap:

As you will be going over the car in detail, have you considered an LHM conversion, spheres etc. could still be painted black for an original look... :eek:

Cheers
Chris
 
Hi Guys,

definately not LHM ... it smells like canola oil. the reseviour fell over spilling lots of in on the ground... It's slippery and hasn't lifted the paint off the floor (which is only water based paint ... anything would lift that stuff.... brake fluid will immediatly lift it like brake stripper).

The inner guards are off, the height correctors are good, as are all the boots (I've seen a systems that's probably had 100ml of LHM added .... man it seriously destroys the boots and seals everywhere. They turn of a soggy soppy black like mush.

I'd recognise LHM anywhere just by it's smell and texture (and taste :rolleyes: :clown: ).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
I would say that it is not canola. In Brother Michael's experience ( and he deeply regrets going near the stuff ) it sends boots into meltdown and height correctors are among the first components to fail.

I would do a survey of cars on Canola.

Ask Kimmo if his ID is okay as it had canola in it for a short time or still has.

Bob Dirks owns a rare DS19 which he put on Canola. Is it still going along happily??

The '56 DS19 had Canola for a short time and very much didn't like it.

I had Canola ready to use when I had Roger Wilkinson's '59 DS 19 but THANKFULLY DIDN'T USE IT as that car is sweeter in Roger's care than it's ever been.

The proof is in the pudding.

The only person that I know that seems to be happy with it is PETERMELB. I believe that he is very meticulous with mechanicals so he MIGHT get away with it. Brother Michael didn't listen and he certainly paid the price.

Good luck - - you'll need it, John Paas.



Gilbert from " out West " quoted recently in his rather colourful language - - -

" Kim or somethin I hope the rats aven’t eaten all the wheel seel rubbers cause some o’ those IJ19’s ‘o got that oil in em like in Jimmy’s fich n chips in town. Jimmy wanted me te use it befor the Sitrun ran inte the dam but I didn want a bar o’ the stinkin stuff.
 
Hi John,

those cars are waaayyyy to early DO NOT PUT CANOLA IN THEM !!!

Then there is the problem of seal material compatibility. Prior to around 1963 the seals in the cars were SBR and Neoprene. SBR was replaced by EPDM in late 1963 or so when it became commercially available. The problem with canola oil (rapeseed) is that SBR, compounded to work with brake fluid (LHS), will not tolerate being in contact with canola oil. That is why some owners of early LHS cars had disastrous results when switching over to it. EPDM is not fazed by it and Neoprene handles it fairly well.
Click to expand...

DO NOT PUT CANOLA INTO A pre-'63 'D' :)

There is several poeple using "bio-star" ... or canola based hydraulic oils on the yahoogroups lists. Personally I'd stick with brake fluid and caster oil myself. However in this instance I will be converting a car that has obviously had oil in it's veins for decades back to brake fluid..... hmmm..... Obviously this car is fine with caster .... otherwise the boots would be a sloppy mess.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Here's a good summary ( entirely plagerised from a yahoogroups email ).

> John,
>
> A few basic pointer about fluid viscosity and Cits. The cars were designed to
use a fluid with a ISO viscosity rating of between 12 to around 20 or so.
LHS/LHS2 had/has a rating of 14 at 40C. LHM+ is typically 18. AW 42 fluid is 42
at 40C. It is quite a bit thicker than what the cars system were designed to
handle. It could cause mechanical issues with the pump as they were never
designed for a fluid that thick.
>
> In addition one also needs to be concerned about the fluids Viscosity Index or
VI. The Cit system needs a fluid with a VI of at least 260 to 280 (where LHS2)
is - and the higher the better. VI is a measure of the fluids resistance to
viscosity changes as temperature changes. They are two completely different
measurements. LHM+ has a VI of around 370.
>
> Then there is the problem of seal material compatibility. Prior to around 1963
the seals in the cars were SBR and Neoprene. SBR was replaced by EPDM in late
1963 or so when it became commercially available. The problem with canola oil
(rapeseed) is that SBR, compounded to work with brake fluid (LHS), will not
tolerate being in contact with canola oil. That is why some owners of early LHS
cars had disastrous results when switching over to it. EPDM is not fazed by it
and Neoprene handles it fairly well.
>
> The bottom line is that what ever fluid you put into the car it needs 1) to be
compatible with the seals in the system, 2) have the correct ISO viscosity
rating and 3) have a Viscosity Index of at least 260. In addition it needs to be
a fluid designed for hydraulic system use. Just because it is an 'oil' does not
mean that it lubrication qualities will still be there when subjected to the
pressures found in the car (600 to 2500 psi). In addition qualified hydraulic
fluids have numerous additives to control foaming and prevent corrosion as well
as maintaining thin film lubrication properties - encountered when the fluids
are subjected to both high temperatures and pressures.
>
>
> Steve
Click to expand...

an excellent overview of the requirements.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
canola

Shane
I used canola in my previous 1966 ID19 when I drove it around Tassie in 2002..
It seemed to be ok but by the time i got around the Apple Isle it had eaten the rear suspension boot..
The second problem was the Mice/Rats.. having left the car in my drive they took to it and completely ate through all hoses with the slightest sniff of canola...
Be warned...
castor oil/brake fluid for me from now on...
 
AFAIK "Buttercup" is off the road requiring practically every seal and diaphragm replaced due to the ravages of canola. Helmut's ID19 is also suffering a similar fate.

DS's Aussie ID19 was converted, by him, to LHM years ago and still rides beautifully softly and with no hydraulic problems.
 
If the whole reason for using Canola oil is to save a couple of dollars then perhaps owning a LHS car is not for you. :wink2:

20L of Dot 4 is about $100 from the right places, and I'm pretty sure that's cheaper than 20L of LHM :2cents:
 
GreenBlood said:
Flame proof suit on :burnboun: :trouslap:

As you will be going over the car in detail, have you considered an LHM conversion, spheres etc. could still be painted black for an original look... :eek:

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...

UFO said:
DS's Aussie ID19 was converted, by him, to LHM years ago and still rides beautifully softly and with no hydraulic problems.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Jim's cabriolet has been converted too, seems like a very smart move to me given the uncertainties with vegi oil alternatives, and of course the bonus with LHM is leaks are rust proofing on the go :wink2:

Cheers
Chris
 
I have always thought chip fat was a bad idea.

Flush the system and stick some decent "brake fluid" stuff in the system. RR363 even!

OR

do what I did.
 
DS said:
....

OR

do what I did.
Click to expand...


I think I'd do what he did!

After recently dismantling some DS23 bits that had been neglected and been though a flood some years ago and finding they were perfect and being unable to dismantle some neglected red fluid bits, I think LHM has it for the long term.

However, it's a mistake to assume LHM-based parts will never corrode. It's certainly possible to get pitting, especially in places where there's little flow and debris can accumulate. For example, height correctors and the leakback side of the priority valve.
 
gilberthenry said:
I would say that it is not canola. In Brother Michael's experience ( and he deeply regrets going near the stuff ) it sends boots into meltdown and height correctors are among the first components to fail.

I would do a survey of cars on Canola.

Ask Kimmo if his ID is okay as it had canola in it for a short time or still has.


Gilbert from " out West " quoted recently in his rather colourful language - - -

" Kim or somethin I hope the rats aven’t eaten all the wheel seel rubbers cause some o’ those IJ19’s ‘o got that oil in em like in Jimmy’s fich n chips in town. Jimmy wanted me te use it befor the Sitrun ran inte the dam but I didn want a bar o’ the stinkin stuff.
Click to expand...

Rats, oh rats. They did chew two washer bottles from the CXs and even the washer filler hose of the wife's modern car. The last time I looked the ID19 was still untouched - mind you the canola Michael had put in leaked out pretty quickly. I let the cat out in the shed every night to keep the rats away these days.
 
It sounds like you should be ok if your ID19 is later than 1963, however if it's had an SBR rubber boot fitted to it at any point, that boot will disintigrate as it can't tolerate anything except brake fluid. It sounds like dogboys had an SBR boot at the back. If his DS19 has canola in it .... BIG problems, every boot and seal will need replacing as the car was built before EPDM rubber was used/available.

It appears both the cars are ok here. What I'll do is get the car running and test the hydraulics with canola (as that's already in there), then once the car is on the road make the decision if I change back to brake fluid.

You see I struggle to see why I need to convert a car back to brake fluid when it's had canola in it for decades..... ***IF*** all the seals and boots are ok when she's tested.

Certainly putting canola in a 50's DS19 would cause untold problems simply due to the fact most of the rubber in the car will be SBR, so will disintigrate. At least if you trashed a pre-'63 ID19 with the stuff, you have far less hydraulic components to do seal replacments on. :(

As always plenty to think about, if I did convert to LHM (I can't see a reason to do this), I'd keep the early correctors and change the boots on them (I like the crazy dance early cars do due to the height correctors :) ), brake valve, all the suspension cylinders and boots, the return lines ...... I have a DSpecial parts car here to pull the parts from. The biggest positive of course is I could also fit the power steering rack ..... It's a BIG job though. hmmm..... The old girl wouldn't have the right stink of brake fluid/early car when you sit in it either.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
DS said:
I have always thought chip fat was a bad idea.

Flush the system and stick some decent "brake fluid" stuff in the system. RR363 even!

OR

do what I did.
Click to expand...
RR 363 for me well I have 20 litres of it in a box sitting next to the car and they are the rolls royce of citroens:rolleyes:
 
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