Relacement seals and engine on old ID

[zorker69]

Hello,

Just wondering if anyone can help me out here. Basically I was contemplating replacing the seals on an older early 60's ID19 so that it can take LHM. Anyone have any idea what a ball park figure would be to have this done would be? Or am I better just sticking to early LHS, canola etc etc and which of these is recommended?

Also is it possible to have a later DSpecial style engine put into an older pre 66 ID car. Or is it not as simple as that a much mods are required to do this?

Any recommendations and further information would be most forthecoming


cheers


zorker

 

[cameron_adsett]

if you can, get a dsuper or dspecial donor car, complete. like a rusty one or something, then you'll have most/all of the parts you'll need.
replace all rubber hoses and pipe seals, and use all the valving and stuff from the later car. perfect.

I can't see why you couldn't run a later engine. if you buy a donor car it makes it even easier than just buying a motor and box.

 

[richo]

No restrictions to doing either of the modifications you propose.
A rusted out D Special is the ideal donor car as mentioned.

These two sentences took but a minute to construct, the labour involved in doing the job will amount to over 100 hours if performed properly.
I speak from experience, on both your contemplations.

Re LHS. There is nothing wrong with DOT4 and the addition of 3% Castor Oil BP for lubricity. Change every two years without fail. LHS replacement seals and dedicated parts are becoming harder to find and expensive.
Canola oil; caveat emptor.

Hope this helps.

 

[gerrypro]

Your only problem will be getting compatible seals for the front brake calipers. These are totaly unlike those of the later cars.
The seals of th single piston high pressure pump should not be hard and the regulator from the later cars can be used. The early regulator is prone to fracturing at the HP pipe inlet. Use the original spheres with the rebuild able damper valves and have them rebuilt with LHM compatible diaphragms if you wish to maintain the early ride characteristics.
Keep the original motor and gearbox for the better fuel economy ( 40 mpg is achievable on a country run at speeds up to 80 MPH )
Cheers Gerry

 

[Greg C]

DS has done it.

I would wonder wether it would be worth replacing the motor with a later one. Would you gain anything, a lot of people love the old long strokers, you would not gain anything in real on the road power unless you go for a 21 or 23 and then would the braking system be up to it. With older Ds getting scarce originality is prised.

Greg

 

[Techbuy]

Your only problem will be getting compatible seals for the front brake calipers. These are totaly unlike those of the later cars.
Cheers Gerry

Has anyone found out what rubber compound should be used for the different LHM LHS fluids.
http://www.sealanddesign.com/category/2/Page/84/cpage/62/62.aspx

As these guys can supply just about any "O" ring ever made.
http://www.ludowicisealsonline.com/

Maybe a call to them with the details of the fluids will sort it out.
http://www.axxonoil.com/file_pdf/lhm_eng.pdf
http://www.candokaraoke.com/tony.html#Top

It might be worth tracking down suitable seals for the whole community.

If I get time I will try to do a bit more searching but the links here are a start.

Ludowici were always good to deal with when I was using their products.

Cheers

Colin

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

The caliper seals for clockwork brakes on early Dees can be fitted with standard size o-rings.

For LHS systems, use EPDM (ethylene propylene). Viton goes hard quickly.

For LHM system, use nitrile.

The braking power of clockwork brakes would be more than a match for the additional power of 21 and 23 motors, even with fuel injection.

I use up to 5% castor oil in the mix with DOT4 brake fluid. You need some for lubricity. If you use too much, or don't change it frequently enough, the castor oil hydrolyses and goes thick and manky and will clog the intake filter. I add a little antioxidant pill to t he tank occasionally.

Roger

 

[richo]

The braking power of clockwork brakes would be more than a match for the additional power of 21 and 23 motors, even with fuel injection.


Roger

The transmission and driveshafts are completely different and not compatible.
Drive shaft lengths are also different, not to mention wheel type and size.


Gerrypro wrote:
Quote
Your only problem will be getting compatible seals for the front brake calipers.
Unquote.

This is not the case, I have already converted a set of clockwork brakes to LHM with readily available Buna Nitrile seals, tested them exhaustively and they are sound.

Techbuy wrote:
Quote
Has anyone found out what rubber compound should be used for the different LHM LHS fluids.
http://www.sealanddesign.com/categor...age/62/62.aspx
Unquote.

LHM : Buna Nitrile, commonly known as Buna N or simply Nitrile. 70 Duro is the common hardness.

LHS: EPDM only.

With regard to seal sizes, of course you can have o-rings made.
You will find ( when you spend the time, as I have ) making them in the original sizes to be prohibitively expensive and the quantities required make it seriously oversupplied for the few who would actually use the them.
For the most part it is practical to use a size which is close, or remake the part to take a seal size which is available.
With regard to EPDM seals, the range available is small these days. The compromise is usually to make your own o-rings from cord or cut the square type rings from EPDM sheet with appropriate tooling.
The sizes which Citroën used were exclusive for the most part, yet some were so close to BS ( or AS if you insist on proclaiming from the other side of the Pacific Pond ) Standards you would accept they used these standard sizes as a template.

Not trying to put a damper on things or be unhelpful, but I have spent no small amount of time in these pursuits.

Hope this helps

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

I am trying to be helpful but have spent as little time on these pursuits as I can get away with.

I was not saying that you can fit clockworks brakes to a 21 or 23 motor and gearbox. Greg's point seemed to be that clockwork brakes would not be powerful enough to cope with a 21 or 23 motor. My point in reply was that they would be plenty powerful enough, not that they would fit.

Roger

PS I like ending sentences with with.

 

[DS]

I converted my 1963 ID19 to LHM many years ago. Best thing I ever did for the car!

I drove LHS2 cars as daily drives for many years back when LHS2 was still a shelf item. I never liked the stuff, ever. It has the hygroscopic issue (not that that ever seemed a problem), it stripped paint off any painted surface it got to, it caused anything aluminium to corrode (that the correct term when alu goes white and scaley?) and it was always expensive compared to LHM.

I used Canola for a short period and HATED it too.

I had all the parts from a very rusted out 1970 D Super.
4 x suspension screw in damper spheres
4 x suspension rams - that I fitted new seals to
1 x accumulator sphere
1 x seven piston pump
1 x pressure regulator
1 x priority valve
2 x height correctors
1 x LHM green reservoir
I made a new pump to reg high pressure line
1 x mushroom brake unit plus the small o-rings for where it connects to the system
2 x rear LHM flexible brake lines and their mounts
2 x rear brake slave cylinders
2 x rebuilt front calipers with LHM o-rings (don't ever take these things out of a car and just put them back without a decent service/overhaul)
Lots of pipe seals
Lots of new rubber return lines cut to size as needed + new hose clamps

Its not a hard job it just requires good prep and procedure. It also helped that I had the engine/gearbox out of the car. The intention always was to fit a power rack but thats never really happened. The 7 piston pump is great cause the car is up and ready quickly!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdrive34/564274221/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdrive34/3074250266/

I love the early long stroke engines. They are not as harsh as the short strokes.

 

[gerrypro]

The transmission and driveshafts are completely different and not compatible.
Drive shaft lengths are also different, not to mention wheel type and size.


Gerrypro wrote:
Quote
Your only problem will be getting compatible seals for the front brake calipers.
Unquote.

This is not the case, I have already converted a set of clockwork brakes to LHM with readily available Buna Nitrile seals, tested them exhaustively and they are sound.

G'Day Richo--- I am always happy to be corrected. Glad you have had success. When I went looking years ago my local supplier threw up his hands in horror. I wanted to convert my 1965 DS19 Pallas.
Cheers Gerry

 

[richo]

G'day Gerry,
I'm pretty sure the bearing and seal places these days are almost conspiring against us. Here in Hobart, unless I do the legwork, it's nearly impossible.

At the time when I began planning the LHM conversion, I did the clockwork brakes first, knowing if there was to be a problem, that would be where I'd likely find it. As it turned out, the conversion was successful.
The pressure tests were carried out over a period o time. There are a number of key elements which I had to learn, by myself. Even went to the trouble of having new pistons made in stainless steel, which really was unnecessary.
Now, you can buy clockwork brake power blocks newly made and already converted.
If someone else wants to do a conversion, at least they know it can be done.
My concern these days is the supply of EPDM seals and o-rings.

 

[Techbuy]

My concern these days is the supply of EPDM seals and o-rings.

I just love looking at the quality of work you do and the depth of knowledge you have. Big thanks Richo for being a part of Aussiefrogs and for helping us all. CHEERS!

Did you check with these guys for the EPDM seals?
http://www.ludowicisealsonline.com/

Thank you for all your help to me by the way...

Colin :headbang:

 

[richo]

Shucks Colin, it's a pleasure.
I enjoy helping where I can.

I used to buy seals from Ludowici, indeed having custom hydraulic packings made back in 1976, now that's showing my age.
It's just that when you only need one or two seals, having to purchase 100 is uneconomical.

For instance, I have had to order special o-rings for the selector pistons on a BVH transmission top. These are of a specification which is is resistant to heat. Only 3 of one size is required and one of another.
They were unavailable in Australia off the shelf, minimum order of 100, waiting time of 4 weeks. They were purchased off the shelf in the USA in packets of 50 at less than 20% of the price here in Australia.
However, I now have 46 of one size and 49 of the other. There wouldn't be that many interested owners who would require the o-rings in the next 10 years. This is what business wants you to do these days.

 

[Techbuy]

I used to buy seals from Ludowici, indeed having custom hydraulic packings made back in 1976, now that's showing my age.

That's about when I was using them as well.. MMM Now we both are showing the Grey???

Still got plenty of time to play with the D's..... :banana:

 

[richo]

That's about when I was using them as well.. MMM Now we both are showing the Grey???

Still got plenty of time to play with the D's..... :banana:

Showing the grey?
I could wish for grey !

This image is about as close as I can go.

 

[RobL]

Replacing an early model D engine with a late model



Hi Zorker.

Back in the early 1980’s, I replaced the original three bearing long stoke engine in my 1960 ID19 with a low km five bearing short stroke engine from a 1975 DSpecial, that had been written off in an accident.

The reason for the conversion was that the original 3 bearing engine, although running OK, was showing signs of wear, and was going to require considerable overhaul work to bring it back to top performance. However, the body was in excellent shape, and had recently been re-sprayed.

The original engine was going to come out anyway, as the H frame front suspension mounts had cracked, as eventually happens in all D’s, and had to be reinforced with welded steel plates.

The DSpecial engine offered a very considerable increase in performance.

At 98bhp, it was almost 50% more powerful than the original engine, which was rated at 66bhp (source: Original Citroen, p.78).

The conversion took some time, much longer than I had anticipated, because of the numerous evolutionary detail changes that had taken place in the ID/DSpecial cars between 1960 and 1975.

For example, the exhaust manifolding and piping of the shorter stroke, and therefore less tall, DSpecial engine had to be modified to be compatible with the exhaust system on the 1960 car, which had the muffler at the front. There was no room to install a DSpecial muffler under the car, as in the early cars, the floor was completely flat.

Fortunately, the forward facing exhaust manifold from the 1960 engine could be machined to fit the 1975 head, and line up accurately with its exhaust ports and retaining studs. Because of the shorter engine, I had to have a new pipe made up to connect the exhaust manifold to the front mounted muffler.

Unlike later D’s, the intruding firewall in the 1960 car curved forward at the bottom to provide more foot room for a centre passenger. This had to be cut out, and a new section welded in so that the 1975 engine would fit.

Fortunately, the engine mounts, and the H frame suspension mounts, were the same on the old car as on the DSpecial.

As well as the engine, I replaced the gearbox, brakes, front suspension, and wheels with those from the DSpecial – effectively, the whole front end became DSpecial.

This meant that the car had the DSpecial five stud wheels on the front, and the original centre-fixed wheels on the rear, so it meant carrying an extra spare wheel in the boot on longer trips – not a big deal.

It also gained the seven cylinder pump from the DSpecial, replacing the old single cylinder type. This meant that it pressurised the system much more quickly – especially after the car had been sitting for some time and had settled.

After the new engine had been installed, the brakes were still operated by the original ID19 pedal/master cylinder arrangement, which worked fine with the DSpecial brakes – except, of course, when very heavy pressure on the brake pedal opened the emergency safety valve on the end of the master cylinder, allowing suspension pressure directly into the brake circuit.

Because this valve was very rarely used on these early ID19 cars, it used to stick in the open position, thereby locking the brakes solid, and making the car impossible to move until the hydraulic brake circuit had been de-pressurised. It also filled the engine compartment with LHS2 under pressure from the vent in the lid of the brake fluid reservoir, stripping paint from wherever the fluid spray landed.

This ridiculous “safety” feature, however good in theory, meant that the while the car might not hit anything after an extreme emergency stop, after you had come to a halt, you were left completely helpless, possibly stuck in the middle of a busy road, and totally unable to move the car.

This once happened to me, when I braked to avoid a stray sheep which suddenly ran on to the road directly in front of me near Lake George, when I was driving from Sydney to Canberra.

My braking was extremely heavy. I managed to avoid the sheep, but the emergency valve had opened, and the car was now stuck, unmovable, with the brakes locked, across the centre line of the highway – a potentially lethal, and, to put it mildly, terrifying situation.

It was around midnight, and traffic was light. Fortunately, a semi trailer driver saw that I was in trouble, and stopped to help. He warned oncoming traffic, while I got out my toolkit and relieved the hydraulic pressure in the brake circuit.

Back in the 1960’s, for the reason described above, many dealers de-activated/removed this emergency brake valve from early IDs. In fact, it had been removed from my car, and, in a misguided attempt to keep the car “original”, I had reinstalled the valve. The only solution if the valve had not been de-activated, was to make sure it moved freely at least once a month. Even then, it could never be guaranteed to return if opened during very heavy braking.

There were other minor, but time consuming, modifications involved with installing the DSpecial engine in the 1960 body – throttle linkage, radiator mounts, and so on.

After the conversion, the car still retained the original RHD ID19 “inverted” gear shift pattern, in which the selection of first gear was toward the driver and up, not down.

One bonus of the replacement of the 1960 engine and ancillaries was the upgrading of the electrics from the feeble 6 volt system to a modern 12 volt system. Among other things, this meant replacing the wiper motor.

I also replaced the original ID seats with the high backed seats from the written-off 1975 DSpecial from which the engine had come – a real improvement in comfort, and safety.

I did not get around to converting the car to LHM, as the LHS2 gave no real trouble – apart from very occasionally stripping some of the under bonnet paint.

I did not change the seals in the hydraulic pump, or the brakes, and never had any fluid leaks in over 150,000km.

Overall, the conversion was worthwhile, and very successful. It gave me around seven years of reliable D series motoring, with a big increase in performance, comfort and reliability over the 1960 ID19.

The modified ID19 was certainly not “original”, but it was all Citroen.

A photo of the car is attached.



RobL

 

[Middlemoon.1]

Keep it real

Hi all. One can can change to LHM gear in a beautiful early sixties masterpiece if they really want to. But it's unnecessary. Better to put a portion of the time into maintaining the system it was born with, and which is an incredible feat of design, as we have less an early ID every time we play frankenstein.

I think owners sometimes confuse an unmaintained 50 year old system with a product that's outmoded or inferior. The best answer therefore being to change to a later system. Holy knee-jerk batman. Much easier to breathe life and restore correct function to the original. If an early system is not working properly - making one think they should have a heart-transplant and blood transfusion - maybe a little exercise, examination and look at the diet is a better start. There is far more available now for these systems than when I started with them in the eighties. Even locally we have at our disposal services that will re-build units on an exchange basis at moderate cost - a pleasant and rewarding way to fiddle.

My ID has been my daily driver since 1987. I drove another one for 5 years before that. I Still drive from Alphington to Keilor and return every day. My LHS2 system has had maintenance along the way, and the original hydraulic system works like new. It's just beautiful. I would not - in a blind fit - put green bits under the bonnet.

These days PBR red dot fluid and castor oil seems to be the favourite and is what I use. I used RR363 from 89 or thereabouts when LHS2 seemed to evaporate. Citro in Melbourne at that time sold RR363 out of a drum labeled LHS2. In about 2002 I put canola in for about six months. What a mess and what a set back. But she bounced back with remedial attention. It was no fault of the system. Just a little false economy on my part.

Best wishes and I would say to any owner of an early car, enjoy its unmistakably unique features.

 

[zorker69]

Thanks everyone for those great responses. A real learning experience to be sure and one that went some way to confirming my instincts, and now more inclined to do which is to leave it as is and go down the route of making sure due diligent is adhered to. Now with that in mind is the task of flushing out the system every year or so a big job and what exactly is required in order to do it properly etc?


Also as far as engine changes go will probably leave as status quo at least for the foreseable future though I do want thank you RobL for that indepth process of all the small things one has to consider when undertaking such a task. Painted the exact picture I was after and showed just how all those little changes that Citroen made through the years much of it unseen make any such job just that little trickier than first thought


cheers


z

 

[Middlemoon.1]

Hi zorker, all I've done is to drop the fluid through the bottom of the reservoir when fully down, remove and thoroughly clean out the tank with metho, and bleed the wheel and brake cylinders, and then do the same again in a few months. I've cleaned out correctors in the past but not for a long while. Of course most of the seals have been replaced etc as the need arose hp pump rebuilt as well as accumulator spheres - new diaphrams etc - over time. Not sure how long you've been into these cars, but please avoid being scared off by some would be expert commercail operators who will bleed you...use knowledgable club sources. PM me if you want recommendations. If you are fortunate to have the power brake (later 62 on) you don't experience the braking problems of the earlier conventional master cylinder model. If you want to play with some old pumps or correctors to see how they work I can give you some. Also - remember these hydraulic systems have a perception of complexity because they're unconventional. They are not that complex to work out really. Have a good read about them in one of the books such as John Thorpe's The Book of the Citroen. Very pleasant read. Make sure you've got a good coolant in the radiator, that the radiator works and that you change the oil often (no filter). I change my oil every month - don't even let it discolour. Oil is cheap. Labour is not. If rebuilding the motor, do your grass roots research before trusting to an 'expert' mechanic who wants a fortune. Have a go yourself if so inclined (lots of advice in the clubs and here as well), or nothing wrong for paying for great work as long as that is what you get. Again I can give recommendations if you want.

Please post a pic of your car - always love to see them. Here's mine below.

Best wishes,

Tim