using a modern voltage regulator in the DS

CorneSoutAfrica

CorneSoutAfrica

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Fellow Frogger
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South Africa
Hi everyone

A few days ago I took my DS23 out of town for a truely mindblowing amazing drive (yea well don't all citroens blow your mind?:roflmao:).

But I finally have the flickering charging light, guess after 40 years the poor old voltage regulator is on it's way out. at 4500+ RPM's the light stays on, so it's going.

I would like to change it to the modern electronic units but what to look for, how much wires should the voltage regulator have (I heared you get 2 3 and 4 wire units)

And how do you get the unit to trigger the battery light? The old units used to pass current through the battery light or something like that then it gets triggered to turn on/off:confused:.

The EFI is less of a mystery for me than changing the voltage regulator.:rolleyes: I want to do it to all 4 of my DS's ASAP

Thanks
Corne
 
the voltage regulator will regulate the voltage, it won't prevent low voltage or charging issues.

It sounds to me like the brushes in the alternator is worn (ie: flickering light). A simple RE55 bosch regulator should wire in without any issues though :) I'm pretty sure there is quite a few "How to" articles on fitting aftermarket regulators to DS's around.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Shane

The alternator was supposedly overhauled at a local auto electrician, but probably it could also be the problem, besides that, I think a modern voltage regulator would be more reliable than a 40 year old unit?

Thanks for a brand name and code, it helps alot. If you say it's just wiring in then it's great, most people here(south Africa) use cheap units and it's a nightmare to get the charge light to go out when the engine runs and the system charges.. Oh and ofcourse the damn flickering lights will be gone.

I do have a writeup of a ford regulator someone used but it's sometimes nice to know the hiccups and eliminate them by buying the correct units and doing it right first time

Thanks
Corne
 
Corne,
If you fit only the Bosch RE55 regulator, you will lose your charge light.
There are cheap alternatives ( for complete alternators ) out there which are readily available.
 
Richo

Bosch here don't even know what an RE55 Regulator is... I bought an alternative unot, it has an earth, live from coil to exciter, then you remove your old regulator, now just to get your charge light to do what it should. As I understand it my battery light will stay on..

How can I get that right? I haven't fitted it yet, it has been a very busy week last week. This week is no better...

Thanks
Corne
 
Corne,
I'm not that familiar with what you've bought. Techbuy ( Coiln ) or Robmac ( Rob ) would be the best to advise.
When my French alternator coughed its last gasp, I changed to American 1 wire technology after being not satisfied with a "modern" external regulator. Now I still have old school looks with a 1 wire design for which parts are readily available, at a reasonable price. That was a couple of years ago.
Given the subjective nature of what I've done, I'd prefer to keep it out of the public domain and allow others to make their own choices.
I do still have the original alternator and have altered no original wiring or mount in its fitment.
 
CorneSoutAfrica said:
Richo

Bosch here don't even know what an RE55 Regulator is... I bought an alternative unot, it has an earth, live from coil to exciter, then you remove your old regulator, now just to get your charge light to do what it should. As I understand it my battery light will stay on..

How can I get that right? I haven't fitted it yet, it has been a very busy week last week. This week is no better...

Thanks
Corne
Click to expand...

Post a link to the exact regulator you have purchased and post a pic of your alternator, which shows the labeling on the terminals.

Then I can try to assist.

There is way to make any alternator drive a warning lamp, but it may require a wire to be added internally and brought out of the alternator.
 
Hi Corne.

I have two PDF's which both explain the wiring differences of the DS charging system and why any regulator cannot be used.
One of them also explains using the Ford regulator which is hidden in the existing Citroen can to look original.

However, they are both 300k and the upload limit is only 100k.
If you PM me your email address I'll send them across to you.

Its entirely possible to use another regulator, but as you have said, it means some compromises and loss of the light, or the light on all the time.
 
Hi Everyone, thanks for the help!!

I went out of town today again in the DS and 'lo and behold my voltage regulator gave up, drove the 120 km back with only battery power. At a Bosch agency I got helped pretty good, he asked me how much wires the regulator has... 4 wires (earth to body)? he looked through a part manual and gave me a picture of a mercedes unit 4 wires (power light wire, B+ ,B-, and exciter) I don't think it is earth on the body although the whole unit has a steel casing. He is ordering a bunch for his stock so I can take one if it's the right one. I don't have a picture of the unit but will post as soon as I can see the unit..

I hope it can work, wow if it's a direct swop then it's a dream! I will post a picture of the unit I bought as soon as I am home, aswell as the regulator wires. I know there is BOB(battery light?), exciter and 2 extra wires B+ and B-? (orinigal voltage regulator) Not sure about the B- though that's body on the orinigal regulator

I'd like to keep the orinigal alternator as long as possible for orinigiality, and because my money is limited (Bloody BVH!!!)

Cheers
Corne
 
CorneSoutAfrica said:
I'd like to keep the orinigal alternator as long as possible for orinigiality, and because my money is limited (Bloody BVH!!!)

Cheers
Corne
Click to expand...

AH! Corne,
The joys of falling in love with a Classic!
Welcome to the club, we all want to do amazing things for this love, but $$$$ and quite often the other half limit our resources...

LOL :joker:

Colin
 
Ok This is the non working unit, you can see every terminal clearly.

Rob i can't get a good shot of the terminals on the alternator, but there are 3 , exciter and a thicker guage wire and a thin guage one. which goes to this unit



on the opposite side there is a BOB wire.

Now to get a universal unit to fit without too much tinkering would be great. I haven't bought any other unit yet accept for the small 2 wire unit that I am not going to use.

I someone can tell me what the "L" and "R" stands for?

Thanks
Corne
 
CorneSoutAfrica said:
Ok This is the non working unit, you can see every terminal clearly.

Rob i can't get a good shot of the terminals on the alternator, but there are 3 , exciter and a thicker guage wire and a thin guage one. which goes to this unit



on the opposite side there is a BOB wire.

Now to get a universal unit to fit without too much tinkering would be great. I haven't bought any other unit yet accept for the small 2 wire unit that I am not going to use.

I someone can tell me what the "L" and "R" stands for?

Thanks
Corne
Click to expand...

As far as I can work out :

1) It's a 2 coil regulator

2) Exc goes to the alternator Exc or (sometimes called Df) terminal

3) L possibly goes to the dash i indicator lamp the other side of which is probably connected to ign swiched +ve

4) R has me confused, but is more than likely ign switched positive power (a hang over of "relay")

BOB wire has me totally stumped. Could it B0v (battery O volts) ie ground ?

The alterator with an output terminal , exc terminal and gnd terminal shows it's externally regulator.

Could check if alternator the ground wire and regulator bob terminal are connected ? If so the mystery is solved.

You may be able to use a Nippondenso regulator, off a Jap car which has an indicator facility.

You could use Bosch RE 55 , but the dash lamp can't be connected. If you wanted that to work you need to add three auxiliary (field) diodes to the alternator.

Frankly, I'd be looking for a replacement 80 amp alternator with an internal regulator off a Jap or German car. Nippondenso are fabulous machines followed closely by Bosch.

In the long term you will have less grief with a newer alternator. Pity you aren't in Oz suitable used Holden units are around $35 and parts very cheap. Most shafts are the same diameter so you need to swap your pulley to the "new" alternator and adapt the bracket, usually with a hacksaw and few packing washers. It will be much easier to do the mods with the engine out of the car.

I'll hunt up some ND and Bosch info so you know how to connect the terminals.
 
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Rob sorry I was sitting with one unit in my hand and writing about another. It is not a bob, there is just a + sign. Could that just be a positive from the ignition? Sorry maby now it's easier to figure out..

On my semi auto that wire is aspecially insulated so I think it should be the live.

Sorry my fault
Corne
 
Hi Corne,

I believe you would be better off with a more modern alternator. Externally regulated alternators are ancient history and by the time you find a replacement regulator you will probably find the alternator needs a full reco as well.

I would go for a Nippon denso high quality product and lots of models available.

Go to a wrecker and pick a model that is a close physical match. I believe 17mm pulley bore is a defacto standard so you should be able to fit the existing pulley of the old alternator.


Link to Toyota general explanation: http://depositfiles.com/files/drnkfmrvp

Link to ND alternator models : http://depositfiles.com/files/6vniw85jt

cheers


Robert

PS: Sorry about girlie image and Russian brides, this is first time I've use this host. It may pay to save the pdf on your pc, I have no idea how the files stays on the host.
 
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Hi Rob,
A D alternator replacement requires two things which aren't found on most modern alternators.
1. upper mount to be at 10 oclock.
2. lower mount ( at 6 oclock ) requires at least a 25mm clearance mount foot to fit on the original bracket.
This is when standing at the front of the car, looking directly at the alternator.

These requirements then avoid many other modifications and possible complications.
There is also the requirement for two wires ( with an internally regulated unit ), one to battery, the other to the charge warning lamp.

Hope this helps.
 
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jackafrica said:
Hi Rob,
A D alternator replacement requires two things which aren't found on most modern alternators.
1. upper mount to be at 10 oclock.
2. lower mount requires at least a 25mm clearance mount foot to fit on the original bracket.

These requirements then avoid many other modifications and possible complications.
There is also the requirement for two wires ( with an internally regulated unit ), one to battery, the other to the charge warning lamp.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

1) I'm still a bit confused ? You give one angular placement but omit the angular placement to which it is referenced. Can I assume the mounting foot at 06:00 looking at the pulley nut ?

2) I've faced this issue as well. I get a piece of heavy wall tube with 10m bore the same length as the existing alternator foot . I then weld a couple tabs to mount the new alternator in the correct place to line up the pulley. Sometimes you need a tab to stop the bracket pivoting off the original mounting bolt.

3)The wiring should never be a problem: use the existing wiring and junction at the old regulator as required. If you use an ND a few more wires may be needed.

I have never it will be a bolt on replacement: only that once you spend the time modify you will have an easily sourced and reliable alternator.


Corne,


Your voltage regulator connections are:

L = goes to indicator lamp

R = goes to "STA" terminal on alternator (it's the star point of stator windings)

EXC = goes to EXC (or F, DF) on the alternator

+VE, flying lead goes to Ign switched +ve


In typical Citroen fashion it appears that regulator in conjunction with the feed from star point inhibits the starter solenoid circuit once the alternator is charging!

 
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robmac said:
1) I'm still a bit confused ? You give one angular placement but omit the angular placement to which it is referenced. Can I assume the mounting foot at 06:00 looking at the pulley nut ?

2) I've faced this issue as well. I get a piece of heavy wall tube with 10m bore the same length as the existing alternator foot . I then weld a couple tabs to mount the new alternator in the correct place to line up the pulley. Sometimes you need a tab to stop the bracket pivoting off the original mounting bolt.

3)The wiring should never be a problem: use the existing wiring and junction at the old regulator as required. If you use an ND a few more wires may be needed.

I have never it will be a bolt on replacement: only that once you spend the time modify you will have an easily sourced and reliable alternator.
Click to expand...

Rob,
I have amended my post to include the "clock" position of the lower mount.
If you own a D you would realise this reference.

The factory bracket is substantial and is best used if possible. On a car which has 4,5 or 6 belts, rigidity of mounting and pulley spacing is an important consideration.

What I have written is assuming the average owner probably doesn't have a welder or fabricating equipment and is seeking what might equate as a bolt on replacement, or as close to this ideal as possible, which is retaining the lower and upper original mounts, without modification.
Hence the requirements I described.

I hope this clarifies your confusion.
 
jackafrica said:
Rob,
I have amended my post to include the "clock" position of the lower mount.
If you own a D you would realise this reference.

The factory bracket is substantial and is best used if possible. On a car which has 4,5 or 6 belts, rigidity of mounting and pulley spacing is an important consideration.

What I have written is assuming the average owner probably doesn't have a welder or fabricating equipment and is seeking what might equate as a bolt on replacement, or as close to this ideal as possible, which is retaining the lower and upper original mounts, without modification.
Hence the requirements I described.

I hope this clarifies your confusion.
Click to expand...

Ever logical Richo.

I'll have a look at alternators with that info in mind.

Does the D series alternator have two bottom "ears" or a solid mounting foot - an image wold help.

Richo I have suused out than you could use Bosch RE 55 regulator and add an external relay relay and have the same functionality as the original D electromechanical regulator. With a bit of luck the RE55 and the relay will fit in existing regulator case!

Would do me a favour and take an ohmeter reading between the L terminal and earth of the regulator case, it's will be less than 250-500 ohms, at a guess. Disconnect any wiring off the terminal before measuring.

If give me the resistance I'll spec a suitable relay and post a wiring diagram for those who want /need to do a conversion.

cheers


Rob
 
Rob,
I'd love to assist, but I no longer have a regulator. Actually have never had one.
The Bosch RE55 regulator was sent to the USA to Hotrodelectric when he made a loom for a New Zealand owner who needed help.

My alternator is of the internally regulated type, but with a traditonal look. I did this a couple of years ago. Think 60s Chev with a twist of Motorola/Prestolite. A friend in the USA started me off, he owns a milling machine and I don't.
There are two ( slightly ) different brackets used on the Ds with alternators and another from the earlier generator type, however the fixing method and shapes are similar and interchangable.

Currently (sic ) 55amp, but creating a monster for a fellow AFer with 100amps. At 1200rpm battery voltage is 14.3v.
Charging light comes on under 550rpm.
 
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