DS Airconditioning

[GreenBlood]

OK, open discussion on aircon installations in DS Citroens.

Colin (Techbuy) has asked a few questions in my D(very)Special rejuvenation thread, and is after some guidance and pics for a complete new installation on his D.

After wiping the grime away it looks like my compressor is a Sanden SD7H15

This looks like a nice upgrade without changing any mounts etc. 15 - 20% improvement on my compressor.
Enhanced SD7

The Enhanced SD7 is a higher performance version of Sanden's popular SD7H15 compressor. We made design improvements to the SD7H15 that provide higher refrigerant gas flow, decreased gas re-expansion, and improved efficiency. The Enhanced SD7 has the same outer dimensions as the standard SD7H15, but is capable of 15% - 20% cooling capacity based on independent testing.

I like this bit...
The Enhanced SD7 is ideal for applications that traditionally use 170cc - 210cc A/C compressors. Typical applications include: large AG or construction vehicles, transport buses, school buses, ambulances, fire trucks, motor homes, and specialty military vehicles. :roflmao:

http://www.sanden.com/index.php?tag=SD7E

Colin asked for a pic of the mounting bracket, I'm going to remove mine to clean and paint so will end up with better pics and measurements and if pushed a scale drawing

What is not shown is the bolt setup at the bottom, the rear leg has a nut welded, and the front leg has a U cut. The compressor mounts to the bracket with four bolts, there are two tension adjusters at the top.

This pic shows the lower bracket bolted to the gearbox housing, the large bolt can be removed but has to be pushed into the rack boot (very little room down there). You can see the two belt tension adjustment arms for the top of the main bracket.

...and this pic shows the receiver dryer and where my condenser is installed (in front of the radiator) unusual but it works well without impeding cooling of the radiator. The preferred Citroen installation would have two condensers mounted into the valance under the front guards.

My car has the typical Auto-Clima across dash interior, I think Colin is after options on this...

Over to the knowledge base...

Cheers
Chris

 

[Techbuy]

DS air con

Chris.
you are a legend.
This is just amazing you went to all this trouble.

Thank you

Colin :headbang:

 

[DoubleChevron]

Robmac will post his magic website soon that has all the aftermarket evaporator units .... Not to mention condensor/fan units that can be mounted anywhere without impacting radiator efficiency (there's no way I'd be sticking a condenser infront of a DS radiator).

Has your cam pulley been beefed up at all ?? They are known to fatique crack with air-con fitted. I should chase up the John Titus piccies of his car.

If I was fitting A/C to a DS, my starting point would be 3layers of insulation on the firewall, front floors and above the muffler.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Chris.
you are a legend.
This is just amazing you went to all this trouble.

Thank you

Colin :headbang:

I can take some piccies of the factory setup too if you like. We have to pull me fathers DS23 in the near future either way (it has the "fender" A/C and notched bumper).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[GreenBlood]

Robmac will post his magic website soon that has all the aftermarket evaporator units .... Not to mention condensor/fan units that can be mounted anywhere without impacting radiator efficiency (there's no way I'd be sticking a condenser infront of a DS radiator).

Has your cam pulley been beefed up at all ?? They are known to fatique crack with air-con fitted. I should chase up the John Titus piccies of his car.

If I was fitting A/C to a DS, my starting point would be 3layers of insulation on the firewall, front floors and above the muffler.

seeya,
Shane L.

Good stuff Shane, hopefully we will end up with an ideal set-up given it's 2011. There must have been many improvements in technology in the last 20 odd years.

Honestly, my car has never overheated in any traffic situations in Queensland summer, so I don't see any reason to move the condenser. The only time it did get hot was when I first owned it and the vinyl radiator chute was in poor condition, fixed that and it's been good since.

Cheers
Chris

 

[DoubleChevron]

I didn't notice yours was infront of the radiator That's interesting, every DS we have here has had borderline cooling abilities. Then again we have never had one with a perfect radiator I guess

I thought I'd never reach the cooling capacity of a CX, with a recored radiator in my CX it runs 100+degrees on 40degree days
seeya,
Shane L.

 

[GreenBlood]

I didn't notice yours was infront of the radiator That's interesting, every DS we have here has had borderline cooling abilities. Then again we have never had one with a perfect radiator I guess

I thought I'd never reach the cooling capacity of a CX, with a recored radiator in my CX it runs 100+degrees on 40degree days
seeya,
Shane L.

Hey Shane, I'm interested in what you say about the crankshaft pulley? My cars aircon hasn't been run for a good while (water pump died and to keep the car on the road I fitted a two pulley pump) as I remember it the compressor runs off a single belt to the water pump (three pulley) how does this impact on the crankshaft pulley? It's too dark in my shed now to see if it has been beefed up.

Cheers
Chris

 

[robmac]

Robmac will post his magic website soon that has all the aftermarket evaporator units .... Not to mention condensor/fan units that can be mounted anywhere without impacting radiator efficiency (there's no way I'd be sticking a condenser infront of a DS radiator).

Has your cam pulley been beefed up at all ?? They are known to fatique crack with air-con fitted. I should chase up the John Titus piccies of his car.

If I was fitting A/C to a DS, my starting point would be 3layers of insulation on the firewall, front floors and above the muffler.

seeya,
Shane L.

http://speedyairspares.com.au/

self contained condensers: http://speedyairspares.com.au/produ..._applications_EXCELLENT_CONDENSER-35-162.html

under dash evaps: http://speedyairspares.com.au/products/Under_dash_COOL_ONLY_with_vented_fascia-3-2.html

 

[fritzelhund]

It isn't a crankshaft pulley..it is on the end of the camshaft, and is therefore driven by the timing chain at the rear of the engine.
Extra load on the chain can result in a rattle at idle from the rear of the engine that goes away with revs., at idle the tensioner isn't loaded enough.
Next the camshaft pulley is made with a cast centre flange that is on the camshaft itself and RIVETTED to the two pressed metal pulleys for the drive belts.. BTW the belts must be replaced as matched pairs and ordered as such.
Sudden clutching loads from the compressor's pulley can ( and does ) loosen the rivets ..alternatives are up to you but I once had extra bolts placed into the flange as well as stronger rivets...
The fabricated compressor mounts have been known to break horizontally from fatigue...that shouldn't be as big a problem with a modern swash plate multi piston compressor... just like the HP pump the original York style was a 2 cylinder reciprocating compressor that was quite vibratory.
The 3 bearing water pump shaft you already know about.
Probs I had with the Autoclima system included the nylon like plastic brush housings on the condenser fans..bloody Italian rubbish actually melted.
There was also no way to direct the cold air from the evaporator downwards towards the floor and the footwells. I melted some holes into the lower edge of the duct to get some downward flow.

 

[DS]

Greenblood, I'm assuming you have never had an issue with the heat exchange point at the radiator causing overheating as your car is a D Special!

The issues I always see always come back to air flow and getting the hot air out of a DS engine bay. All the insulation in the world is great but if the air flow/venting is no good heat soak is the end result.

Many years ago Barry Sargeant, a CCCNSW member prepared a DS21 EFI as a Raid car. He was the first person I ever knew to seal off the original under bumper condensors with a cap so hot air could not flow up into the engine bay.

I also find some modern electric fans a bit lame in the amount of air they move through a DS radiator (where the spindly original DS supplementary electric fan seems to blow masses or air).

 

[Mort Subite]

...reading and awaiting modern options with interest.

 

[ARCHRIVAL]

This is how I got mine working

Gets a bit warm but the radiator is not the heavy duty close fin unit

 

[GreenBlood]

It isn't a crankshaft pulley..it is on the end of the camshaft, and is therefore driven by the timing chain at the rear of the engine.
Extra load on the chain can result in a rattle at idle from the rear of the engine that goes away with revs., at idle the tensioner isn't loaded enough.
Next the camshaft pulley is made with a cast centre flange that is on the camshaft itself and RIVETTED to the two pressed metal pulleys for the drive belts.. BTW the belts must be replaced as matched pairs and ordered as such.
Sudden clutching loads from the compressor's pulley can ( and does ) loosen the rivets ..alternatives are up to you but I once had extra bolts placed into the flange as well as stronger rivets...
The fabricated compressor mounts have been known to break horizontally from fatigue...that shouldn't be as big a problem with a modern swash plate multi piston compressor... just like the HP pump the original York style was a 2 cylinder reciprocating compressor that was quite vibratory.
The 3 bearing water pump shaft you already know about.
Probs I had with the Autoclima system included the nylon like plastic brush housings on the condenser fans..bloody Italian rubbish actually melted.
There was also no way to direct the cold air from the evaporator downwards towards the floor and the footwells. I melted some holes into the lower edge of the duct to get some downward flow.

Thanks fritzelhund, I'll check the pulley in daylight. I've not heard any chain rattle at idle. I couldn't imagine the main bracket developing fatigue cracks, to me it looks way over engineered, must be 5 or 6mm steel with gussett reinforcement. Interesting comment regarding the Autoclima, the only negative I have with my set-up is the noisy internal fans, might have to check those brush housings :wink2:

Greenblood, I'm assuming you have never had an issue with the heat exchange point at the radiator causing overheating as your car is a D Special!

The issues I always see always come back to air flow and getting the hot air out of a DS engine bay. All the insulation in the world is great but if the air flow/venting is no good heat soak is the end result.

Many years ago Barry Sargeant, a CCCNSW member prepared a DS21 EFI as a Raid car. He was the first person I ever knew to seal off the original under bumper condensors with a cap so hot air could not flow up into the engine bay.

I also find some modern electric fans a bit lame in the amount of air they move through a DS radiator (where the spindly original DS supplementary electric fan seems to blow masses or air).

Call me Chris please :wink2:
Although my car is a D Special, it has a full 23 motor conversion and 5 speed gearbox, so the whole driveline, cooling system was lifted from a 23 car, as I say, I've not had overheating problems since the rad chute was remade. I don't know that I'd contemplate aircon in a D Special. Though that is what this thread should reveal, modern technologies may make this quite viable.

...reading and awaiting modern options with interest.

Hopefuly all will be revealed :wink2:

I'm not really interested in changing what I have, though that new Sanden does appeal.

No, hopefully for those starting from scratch or looking to improve what they have, we may get some good info and source of components. Robmac has a couple of good links, those condensors look like they would fit into the front valance of a D.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Boyracer]

FWIW, mine appears to be the same rotary compressor, a Sanden SD7H15.

I have the car with me at work today and happened to have a camera handy too!

Here's my set up.

 

[GreenBlood]

:wink2:

FWIW, mine appears to be the same rotary compressor, a Sanden SD7H15.

I have the car with me at work today and happened to have a camera handy too!

Here's my set up.

That looks very neat, (could use a bit more dirt there though Michael)...
Looks like you have managed more room between the aircleaner and compressor than mine, but maybe more restricted access to the sphere?

Always love looking under your bonnet

Edit: Of course your car is auto, so no gear linkage running through that gap :wink2:

Cheers
Chris

 

[Boyracer]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your kind words, but I can't take any credit for the installation. Jason Hantos did this three or four years back when we did an engine rebuild.

My job is to keep things clean & tidy and clean his finger prints off.

By the way, did you notice the stickers? :headbang:

 

[GreenBlood]

By the way, did you notice the stickers? :headbang:

I did, nice finishing touch... :wink2:

I guess your condensers are where they should be under the front guards? Where is the Receiver Dryer? Can we get a shot of the interior?

How efficient do you find it, the link I posted above claims 15 -20% more cooling capacity for the Enhanced SD7 - one of those and I wonder if one of these mounted into the rear parcel shelf

http://speedyairspares.com.au/products/Under_dash_COOL_ONLY_with_vented_fascia-3-2.html

Cheers
Chris

 

[Techbuy]

more questions

Looking at all the great installations I have just been down and taken some pictures of mine.
it's like a snakes honeymoon.

The question is if you look at the hoses down to the condensers they have put a "T" in them and if I am correct halving the cooling capacity.
Looking at some of the pictures that have been posted most are connected in serial one after the other so the pipe goes to one side out of that one across the car and then into the other side.

When I go for the change over on the compressor I was going to get rid of the "T" and get them plumbed in serial one after the other.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Colin

 

[robmac]

Looking at all the great installations I have just been down and taken some pictures of mine.
it's like a snakes honeymoon.

The question is if you look at the hoses down to the condensers they have put a "T" in them and if I am correct halving the cooling capacity.
Looking at some of the pictures that have been posted most are connected in serial one after the other so the pipe goes to one side out of that one across the car and then into the other side.

When I go for the change over on the compressor I was going to get rid of the "T" and get them plumbed in serial one after the other.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Colin

Dual condensers are most usually in series, whilst dual evaporators are always in parallel.

I would suggest that it's plumbed the way by mistake. It won't have "half" the condensing effect, but I don't believe it is optimum.

In parallel, the condensers will share refrigerant flow based on the pressure drop, ie the temperature, so the cooler condenser will get the most flow.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Wow, well spotted. Someone has re-plumbed the car with parallel condesers. I wonder what my fathers will look like. I'll get up there tomorrow and see.

seeya,
Shane L.