Mr Haynes recommends Champion N7Y plugs for the 1565cc 807 - 10 and 11. I haven't checked for equivalent plugs in other brands.
807-11 Engine Tune data
- Thread starter RINGER
- Start date
Thanks ~ I have tried to cross reference & that plug comes up as NGK BP7ES. BUT ~
Now when I plug that spark plug into either 17 or 15 there is indication that:
This part isn't compatible with Renault 17 1976 Coupe 1.6 Gordini FWD Petrol 1.6L 4cyl 79kW 844.12 1605cc 79kW
This part isn't compatible with Renault 15 1977 130 Coupe 1.6 (1302) FWD Petrol 1.6L 4cyl 66kW 807.10 1565cc 66kW
I dug this up on a Lotus forum & also saw somewhere else where on the Renault engine NGK BP8ES &/or NGK BP9ES if using LPG.
This engine was a near new rebuild when I got this car. It was absolutely spotless inside the rocker cover plus I would say it was probably hotted up a bit by the PO.
It goes really well & is only spoiled by the close ratio transmission or diff ratio ~ doesn't like hills.
Frankly ~ that I do not know ~ does anyone else, please?
Now when I plug that spark plug into either 17 or 15 there is indication that:
This part isn't compatible with Renault 17 1976 Coupe 1.6 Gordini FWD Petrol 1.6L 4cyl 79kW 844.12 1605cc 79kW
This part isn't compatible with Renault 15 1977 130 Coupe 1.6 (1302) FWD Petrol 1.6L 4cyl 66kW 807.10 1565cc 66kW
I dug this up on a Lotus forum & also saw somewhere else where on the Renault engine NGK BP8ES &/or NGK BP9ES if using LPG.
This engine was a near new rebuild when I got this car. It was absolutely spotless inside the rocker cover plus I would say it was probably hotted up a bit by the PO.
It goes really well & is only spoiled by the close ratio transmission or diff ratio ~ doesn't like hills.
The engine is out of an automatic, either a 15TS or 17TL. I think that is the plug I run in my 15. I'll check later.
Thanks again. Earlier in this revived thread I mentioned this vehicle [a 1949 Light 15] now has a 4 speed transmission hooked up to this engine.
I have an 807-10 in my R12 the plugs that I am running at present are NGK B8ES
Also don't forget that there are cross flow and non cross flow versions of these engines. I know the cross flow engines use a long reach plug, so i'm guessing the non cross flow may use a short reach plug.
Also don't forget that there are cross flow and non cross flow versions of these engines. I know the cross flow engines use a long reach plug, so i'm guessing the non cross flow may use a short reach plug.
It's a cross flow head & thanks JG
If it is coupled to a 4 speed manual and doesn't like hills, that means the 'box has the wrong ratios, but I don't think it will be a close ratio 'box. Those had 5 speeds and I think one would actually help in your situation. How heavy is the car? And what 'box is it?
My personal experience with mappable ignition, is that unless you have a dyno, there is no chance of detecting the difference between a few degrees of advance. Bear in mind also that the original dizzy 'map' wasn't necessarily intended to maximise performance, which is usually the objective when enthusiasts are asking about such things, 50 years later. Just as good a result for most purposes, will be achieved by starting with a generic map, and fiddling from there. Assuming we are talking about mappable ignition....
That is true. That is what dynos are made for.
But.
John Passini gives an in-depth tuning guide in one of his books but the point he stresses is that you have to have rather specific driving conditions and skills, which is where the hard part is. The method relies on reading the plugs, so the engine needs to be shut off at various points (speeds/loads) to capture the information the spark plugs can provide. It's a very good read, but I don't think our friend has this problem. His problem sounds like a typical mismatch between engine and g'box.
But.
John Passini gives an in-depth tuning guide in one of his books but the point he stresses is that you have to have rather specific driving conditions and skills, which is where the hard part is. The method relies on reading the plugs, so the engine needs to be shut off at various points (speeds/loads) to capture the information the spark plugs can provide. It's a very good read, but I don't think our friend has this problem. His problem sounds like a typical mismatch between engine and g'box.
My 15TS 807-11 auto has NKG B8ES. From long ago my memory thinks that the ES relates to the type of material used for the core and tip. A "C" meant a copper core etc in one brand not sure which any more. But that won't make any difference. However the P in the BP means projected reach or some thing similar and would not be suitable I wouldn't think as it may hit the piston.
The reason I asked about running on & this particular engine is because I am not as familiar with it as some on here.
On the other hand I taught dyno tuning in TAFE WA in the 70's & worked doing the same with Fluidrive Automatic Transmissions then in Brunswick Vic. in the late 60's when Chapel Engineering were bringing in the first SM's & plenty of Pontiac GTO's etc.
The transmission is 4 speed Renault R16 & the engine is as described. The car weighs about 1100kg.
I'm not complaining, the car runs 100% on & @ freeway speeds. In the hills around here like Mt. Tamborine etc. changing down unless one gets a good run, is a fact of life. It really sounds like old Reno's did with a slightly better note & that also is a fact of life.
I've ordered a set of NGK B8E S. Only 2 in stock locally.
On the other hand I taught dyno tuning in TAFE WA in the 70's & worked doing the same with Fluidrive Automatic Transmissions then in Brunswick Vic. in the late 60's when Chapel Engineering were bringing in the first SM's & plenty of Pontiac GTO's etc.
The transmission is 4 speed Renault R16 & the engine is as described. The car weighs about 1100kg.
I'm not complaining, the car runs 100% on & @ freeway speeds. In the hills around here like Mt. Tamborine etc. changing down unless one gets a good run, is a fact of life. It really sounds like old Reno's did with a slightly better note & that also is a fact of life.
I've ordered a set of NGK B8E S. Only 2 in stock locally.
I think that we may have identified the issue. Too hot & projected tip.
Both Col & Sunroof had the same plugs NGK B8E S.
Not sure, but have ordered a set to see how they go. Many thanks.
There's your problem regarding g'box/engine. A R16 is a light car compared with the 1100kg you're lugging now (about 900kg+ so about 200 below what you have) so the ratios are most likely wrong. The diff is probably the smallest of all available in the various g'boxes mated to this type of engine, but I would check just to be sure. I think they had something like 8x33 or some such, but I am not familiar with R16 'boxes. Others here will now for sure. The good thing is that (again from faint memory) there were quite a few ratios available for these boxes used in R16. A little mix and match if possible (wouldn't surprise anyone with R16 boxes) could yield the right ratios for you.
While I get the extra weight of the car might make a difference I reckon a 16 with 4 adults and luggage would come in at about that. Never ran a 16 so don't know what they were like when fully loaded. Some one here will know but from most comments they seem as if they could go well but perhaps needed to get wound up.
That is logical & with 82HP v/s about 55HP original Citroen engine the weight is immaterial. The R16 Renault was not very different @ over 1000kg curb weight.
Getting wound up sounds like the story.
Getting wound up sounds like the story.
The R16 was above 1000kg loaded, I take it you said your car was 1100kg unloaded.
While the 807 engine is pretty happy to rev to levels you won't tolerate for long, how it responds to g'box gearing is not about the power figures but about torque and where in the powerband this lies. Your problem specifically tells exactly that story. Your engine doesn't have the torque to sustain going up that hill, in that gear + that speed = at that engine rev level. If you want to go up that hill at that speed the only parameter you can change in that equation is the gear ratio. Either downshift or find a g'box with different ratios.
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The transaxle gearing may not be the problem. The Renault R16 came with a differential ratio of 3.777 : 1 here in Australia. The R16 was fitted with 14" wheels and the tyres were 155 x 14 radials which were most like 80 profile.
From memory you have this R16 motor/transaxle combo installed in a Citroen Traction. I'm assuming the Traction has 15" rims with tyres from the Traction era so the overall gearing will be higher than what the R16 was that the engine/transaxle came from.
You may need to do some comparing of gear ratios between the R16 and the Traction, and there will lay your answer.
My R12 weighs 1000 Kg and has about 90 to 100 BHP a differential ratio of 3.555 : 1 and 13" wheels with 175 70 R13 tyres and has plenty of power to climb hills
From memory you have this R16 motor/transaxle combo installed in a Citroen Traction. I'm assuming the Traction has 15" rims with tyres from the Traction era so the overall gearing will be higher than what the R16 was that the engine/transaxle came from.
You may need to do some comparing of gear ratios between the R16 and the Traction, and there will lay your answer.
My R12 weighs 1000 Kg and has about 90 to 100 BHP a differential ratio of 3.555 : 1 and 13" wheels with 175 70 R13 tyres and has plenty of power to climb hills
Respectfully:
1. This thread was raised about tuning of one engine, that I wasn't familiar with.
2. Help from most, much appreciated.
3. A casual comment on my part regarding an apparent lack of grunt [that appears to be a regular R16 performance issue] in hilly country has taken over.
4. Back to topic, please.
5. Valuable stuff regarding SPARK PLUG SELECTION & heat range maybe drowned out from others, not informed.
All contributions taken on board & I'll report back on results.
My retro mod/ed 1949 Light 15 is a daily driver, has 15" Holden Astra tyres/wheels/power assisted disc brakes/electric power steering.
Is on full rego, can keep up with & run in 2021 traffic SAFELY!
1. This thread was raised about tuning of one engine, that I wasn't familiar with.
2. Help from most, much appreciated.
3. A casual comment on my part regarding an apparent lack of grunt [that appears to be a regular R16 performance issue] in hilly country has taken over.
4. Back to topic, please.
5. Valuable stuff regarding SPARK PLUG SELECTION & heat range maybe drowned out from others, not informed.
All contributions taken on board & I'll report back on results.
My retro mod/ed 1949 Light 15 is a daily driver, has 15" Holden Astra tyres/wheels/power assisted disc brakes/electric power steering.
Is on full rego, can keep up with & run in 2021 traffic SAFELY!
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Unlike many here it seems, I use NGK 7 heat range plugs in my modded 807 without problem, but the car is not used at the track.
I would have said the 807 is a willing and torquey engine, and that hills, in a 16 at least are not a problem. I wonder if the cam has been played with and either ground incorrectly, or timed wrong. Although I admit to be out a tooth and be performing at all would be surprising. An easy check is to bring up a piston to TDC on overlap and check how much lift there is at the valves. Should be close to the same at maybe 2mm, or more if it had a bigger grind on the cam.