807-03 engine into r12

Rory

Member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
104
Location
Adelaide
Hi all. I am starting to collect necessary parts to fit a 16ts 807 engine into an r12 with acquiring an engine suitable for rebuild this morning.
I know all the answers are hidden somewhere in the forum but they are proving tricky to find.
What gearbox, bellhousing am I going to need for this swap. I'm thinking that'll be the first hurdle.
Thanks in advance for any advice or pointing me towards info I might be looking for 🙂
 
R15/17 is an easier fit i believe. The engine mount bosses are different on the R16 engine so you'll need custom engine mounts.
 
Hi Rory!

I believe you need;

-Virage / Late model R12, bell housing / flywheel and clutch (if using your 12 gearbox)
-Input shaft from a (15/17) gearbox, (if using your 12 gearbox)
-Or if using 15/17 gearbox, you need to bash your 12's transmission tunnel out to fit.

As far as I can tell, in the good ol' days (20yrs ago) the chaps here used to take all the running gear from a 15/17 and bolt it in.

As mentioned above, as you have a 16 based engine, the engine mounts are in the wrong position and you will have to fashion some.

Someone will chime in about drive shafts, if you are using the 15/17 stuff they are slightly longer (maybe?) and there is something about using the 15/17 front stub axles / hubs as well.

Is that is everyone?
 
21571 is correct .Unless you weld and can get modified engine mounts approved find an engine from a 15 or 17 or the impossible 16TX engine. It has bolt holes for both 12/15/17 as well as 16 as do the later 17TS/G engines. You need a bell housing, clutch, pressure plate and fly wheel from 15/17. Also manifolds, 12 stuff won't fit including Virage. I have a feeling vertical carbies won't fit without a bonnet bulge. Might be wrong on that. If you are going DCOE side draft Webers then you will need to modify the inner guard to fit them. Accelerator linkages cables etc will need to be altered to suit. The alternator off a 16 doesn't fit nor does the adjustable mount, they will hit the bonnet. From memory the alternator from a 15/17 has mounts at 110 degrees rather than 180 degrees. There is an older Toyota one that fits. Making an adjustment bar is straight forward. The radiator hoses are also a bit hard to find although a recent thread on here of a 15/17 parts site in France has the hoses now. Else use what ever you can find to match the bends and join them with stainless or copper pipe as they run from the rear of the engine. None of the 16 pulleys work either and to make 15/17 pulleys fit a 16 water pump you will need to cut the drive plate to fit the smaller pulley and drill and tap new screw holes. The 16 motor has an electric fan. To fit one of these you will need something smaller in length than the 16 one as it sits too close to the manifold and the heat kills it. Also you need a wider radiator than the 12 one and will need to fit a thermoswitch to control the fan. There is a space for it on a 15 or 17TL radiator where as the 17TS/G already have the switch fitted. 15/17TL have a mechanical fan. You need the timing cover the crankshaft extension to run one of these. Personally I'd go electric. I cannot remember but may be the clutch cable is different. If you find a 5 speed box there are a whole lot of additional issues. Think that's all. Easier to buy a 15 or 17 really. But if you really want to do this then you need a wrecked 15TS, 17TL, or 17TS/G. The 16 engine has a lower compression ratio than either a 15/17. The 15/17 4 speed has different ratios than a 12. You only need to modify the body for a 5 speed but not a 4 speed. The driveshaft and hubs are the same as 12's. Gear linkage is quite different and needs quite a few mods.

Have fun, its been done many times before so not impossible, just easier with a 15/17 to get all the necessary bits.

Note: Qld rego people used to have a paper telling you that you also need to upgrade the brakes to those from a 15/17TL. Including the rear drums off a 15/17TL or 12 station wagon.
 
Its a lot easier if you source your parts from a R17TL/TS or 15TS. This way you will have the correct block, transaxle, engine mounts, brake and suspension upgrade as well.

You could also use R18 motor as well.

With the R16 you will need to make your own engine mount adapters as the R16 blocks don't have the right castings for the 15/17 blocks.

The easiest way to to source a complete rusty R15/17 as your donor car as you will have everything you need to do the conversion, but I reckon these must be getting thin on the ground now.
 
Thanks everyone for the quick and detailed responses.
A 15/17 would I agree be the best option however I feel the scarcity of these has ruled this out to be not a viable option anymore.
I am capable of fabricating what I have to to make things work. Ie eng mounts, mounting brackets for alternator, cables etc.
I feel like this might be an achievable goal using a More accessible 16 engine. These engine were fitted in the US market and to 12g's?
Were they ever mated to the 4spd box or the 5spd is going to have to be sourced.
Installed currently is a virage 1.4. I don't think this will make a difference
 
This engine is in my Lt 15 with a 4 speed transmission.
Chassis numbers (2).JPG


I'm in the process of replacing hobbled together drive shafts
DSCF1916.JPG
& fitting Subaru Brumby drive shafts @ this time.
They will be mated with Astra AH power disc brakes all round.
Might have been an easier exercise using Subaru Discs & hubs!
The drive shaft modification etc. is not all that difficult & if y'all want some pictures & info let me know.
Original suspension is not modified or altered
 
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Hi Rory

I’m with you on this.

I’ve posted numerous times seeking an R17 block to no avail. So I’ve collected the bits for a rebuild and will proceed with the R16 block.

R17 exhaust manifold is handy tho if you’re into fabrication a set of extractors would work.

With luck Gekoeng and Shoji will join the thread as they’ve done something similar recently - including fabricating mounts

Yes the R17 block is preferable but they’re hard to find. Better to make a start with what you’ve got, than futz about looking for what’s not there, methinks..
 
Going to keep my eye on this thread. There's an old R12 in a shed for sale near me and I have a R16 engine and box here. Would be a good project for a very cheap track car.
 
Going to keep my eye on this thread. There's an old R12 in a shed for sale near me and I have a R16 engine and box here. Would be a good project for a very cheap track car.
The R16 box won't suit an R12 application, gearbox is in front of the engine in an R16, behind in R12/15/17.

I have an 807 sitting here waiting for the right R12 to turn up. Think our family only had 4 of them, the last one thrown out about 20 years ago.
 
Assuming bell housing different between 16 and 15/17? I originally had this stuff set aside for a possible 16ts Dauphine but decided it'd be too much work so toying with the r12 'gordini' style track car instead.

EDIT - I mean to say there's no way of doing this without some r15/17 gearbox bits?
 
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Assuming bell housing different between 16 and 15/17? I originally had this stuff set aside for a possible 16ts Dauphine but decided it'd be too much work so toying with the r12 'gordini' style track car instead.

EDIT - I mean to say there's no way of doing this without some r15/17 gearbox bits?
Pretty much. The selector linkages R12/15/17 are the same/similar, R16 way different. Can't imagine the headaches designing those. The diffs are hypoid so you can't just swap the crown to the other side. Unless you want 4 reverse gears and I forward
 
21571 is correct .Unless you weld and can get modified engine mounts approved find an engine from a 15 or 17 or the impossible 16TX engine. It has bolt holes for both 12/15/17 as well as 16 as do the later 17TS/G engines. You need a bell housing, clutch, pressure plate and fly wheel from 15/17. Also manifolds, 12 stuff won't fit including Virage. I have a feeling vertical carbies won't fit without a bonnet bulge. Might be wrong on that. If you are going DCOE side draft Webers then you will need to modify the inner guard to fit them. Accelerator linkages cables etc will need to be altered to suit. The alternator off a 16 doesn't fit nor does the adjustable mount, they will hit the bonnet. From memory the alternator from a 15/17 has mounts at 110 degrees rather than 180 degrees. There is an older Toyota one that fits. Making an adjustment bar is straight forward. The radiator hoses are also a bit hard to find although a recent thread on here of a 15/17 parts site in France has the hoses now. Else use what ever you can find to match the bends and join them with stainless or copper pipe as they run from the rear of the engine. None of the 16 pulleys work either and to make 15/17 pulleys fit a 16 water pump you will need to cut the drive plate to fit the smaller pulley and drill and tap new screw holes. The 16 motor has an electric fan. To fit one of these you will need something smaller in length than the 16 one as it sits too close to the manifold and the heat kills it. Also you need a wider radiator than the 12 one and will need to fit a thermoswitch to control the fan. There is a space for it on a 15 or 17TL radiator where as the 17TS/G already have the switch fitted. 15/17TL have a mechanical fan. You need the timing cover the crankshaft extension to run one of these. Personally I'd go electric. I cannot remember but may be the clutch cable is different. If you find a 5 speed box there are a whole lot of additional issues. Think that's all. Easier to buy a 15 or 17 really. But if you really want to do this then you need a wrecked 15TS, 17TL, or 17TS/G. The 16 engine has a lower compression ratio than either a 15/17. The 15/17 4 speed has different ratios than a 12. You only need to modify the body for a 5 speed but not a 4 speed. The driveshaft and hubs are the same as 12's. Gear linkage is quite different and needs quite a few mods.

Have fun, its been done many times before so not impossible, just easier with a 15/17 to get all the necessary bits.

Note: Qld rego people used to have a paper telling you that you also need to upgrade the brakes to those from a 15/17TL. Including the rear drums off a 15/17TL or 12 station wagon.
He's right.....
 
Thanks everyone for the quick and detailed responses.
A 15/17 would I agree be the best option however I feel the scarcity of these has ruled this out to be not a viable option anymore.
I am capable of fabricating what I have to to make things work. Ie eng mounts, mounting brackets for alternator, cables etc.
I feel like this might be an achievable goal using a More accessible 16 engine. These engine were fitted in the US market and to 12g's?
Were they ever mated to the 4spd box or the 5spd is going to have to be sourced.
Installed currently is a virage 1.4. I don't think this will make a difference
Are you linked up with Club Automobile Francaise? There is at least one Adelaide member who knows these vehicles extraordinarily well.
 
Hi all. I am starting to collect necessary parts to fit a 16ts 807 engine into an r12 with acquiring an engine suitable for rebuild this morning.
I know all the answers are hidden somewhere in the forum but they are proving tricky to find.
What gearbox, bellhousing am I going to need for this swap. I'm thinking that'll be the first hurdle.
Thanks in advance for any advice or pointing me towards info I might be looking for 🙂
Use an R15/17, mounts work much better
 
Assuming bell housing different between 16 and 15/17? I originally had this stuff set aside for a possible 16ts Dauphine but decided it'd be too much work so toying with the r12 'gordini' style track car instead.

EDIT - I mean to say there's no way of doing this without some r15/17 gearbox bits?

The R16 bell housing doesn't have reliefs cast into it for the crown wheel.
 
Thanks everyone for the quick and detailed responses.
A 15/17 would I agree be the best option however I feel the scarcity of these has ruled this out to be not a viable option anymore.
I am capable of fabricating what I have to to make things work. Ie eng mounts, mounting brackets for alternator, cables etc.
I feel like this might be an achievable goal using a More accessible 16 engine. These engine were fitted in the US market and to 12g's?
Were they ever mated to the 4spd box or the 5spd is going to have to be sourced.
Installed currently is a virage 1.4. I don't think this will make a difference

Which engine are you asking about? You refer to both R16 and R15/17 just before the question hence unclear.

If you're asking about the R15/17 engines, they almost never came attached to 5sp gearboxes in these cars, 17TS and 17G are the only exceptions. The clutch bell housing is the same, and it is the same with the 395 'box bellhousing found on R18 (which is a five speeder, by the way, but not close ratio). Using one however means you'll need the associated clutch cable stop, because the lever on the 395 ex R18 is longer than that on R17/R15 so make sure you get that too.

Dunno if the R16 bell housing can be used.

Hi Rory!

I believe you need;

-Virage / Late model R12, bell housing / flywheel and clutch (if using your 12 gearbox)
-Input shaft from a (15/17) gearbox, (if using your 12 gearbox)
-Or if using 15/17 gearbox, you need to bash your 12's transmission tunnel out to fit.

As far as I can tell, in the good ol' days (20yrs ago) the chaps here used to take all the running gear from a 15/17 and bolt it in.

As mentioned above, as you have a 16 based engine, the engine mounts are in the wrong position and you will have to fashion some.

Someone will chime in about drive shafts, if you are using the 15/17 stuff they are slightly longer (maybe?) and there is something about using the 15/17 front stub axles / hubs as well.

Is that is everyone?

No, R12 (any model, including the Virage) bellhousings don't fit the 807 block. One exception is the R12 Gordini, but you won't be finding one of them at the breakers (or if you do, take that and give them your car in exchange).

Need to bash the underside only if using a five speed 'box, in which case you also need the mounts, brackets, etc.

Driveshafts fit no problem, the R17 are stronger.

Any part of the suspension/brakes is a direct fit from R17 to R12.
 
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