505 Advice

L

luthier

Well-known member
1000+ Posts
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,268
Location
Northern NSW
Having recovered my white 505 GTI series 2 from the old property I am now working on the motor to hopefully build something reliable.
The engine in question had been sitting unused for a decade at least before I pulled it from the donor car. I had it running briefly before a big time lapse due to serious disruption of home and house etc.
Having already had the experience of fitting another similar engine which almost immediately blew a head gasket, I decided to change this one's head gasket before putting it into service.
So it's on an engine stand and I had the head off today. Nothing had blown so perhaps it will work with just a new headgasket.
But I'm a bit worried about the sleeve seals. It doesn't look as if there's any protrusion but till I get some gasket dissolver and really clean everything up it's hard to tell.
My question is if there is no protrusion or even if there is would it be best to fit new seals and thus rings and big ends at the same time?
If that is recommended then can this be done by leaving the crankshaft in situ and simply undoing the bigends and pushing these and pistons out with the sleeves?
Your thoughts appreciated.
 
In order to sleep at night, every time I have done major engine or cylinder head works I have always replaced liner seals as well.

The extra work is usually minimal and another item which can stuff up is removed from the process.

If the block (XN engines particularly) is a bit pitted when the liner seals mate, I've always had success with a thin smear of Wurth silicon sealant before fitting the liner & seal. Clamp the liner immediately after installing.

Don't underestimate the force required to remove a Peugeot liner which has been in a running engine for a long time.
 
Thanks Rob, yes I can imagine how stuck those sleeves probably are.
When you say minimal extra work, would you mind if I pick your brain about that? Maybe with a PM?
 
I used to pop out the pistons from engines all the time while they were still in the car. It's been 10 years since my last though.
About the only extra thing you will need is an O-ring for the oil pump, which you will have to take off to get to the front two big ends..

As Rob has said...for the sake of a good night's sleep, it is probably worth doing. But unless the engine has done loads of Ks (and depending on the condition of the bore) I would be inclined to just use the same rings and big ends.

The way to take out the liners is to get two very large screwdrivers or levers and lever them back and forth until they get quite loose. It is necessary to have patience doing this. Just continue back and forth and all is well.
Don't hit a liner from underneath except with something quite soft like a piece of wood, and even then do it gently. The walls are quite thin at the bottom....much thinner than the top. I broke a big piece out of one once, by banging upwards with something.

If you do put in new rings, here is a trick an old Pug mechanic told me : put all the liners on a table and label them from one to four. Then pick up the whole line together and turn the entire row 180 degrees, so that the thrust face from number one becomes the rear face of number four.......and so on.

That way you create new thrust faces for each liner, and the seldom used rear face is then replaced by the previous thrust face.
You can hone each cylinder by hand with 80 grit sandpaper in a cross-hatch pattern.

I have done this a few times, and the first time the engine had 180 K on it. I later sold it at 400 K and it was still going strong.....though I did have new ring grooves machined into the pistons to take Toyota rings, which are wider. It's something that many people did. An engine rebuilder should know which Toyota rings will fit, after measuring the pistons.
 
Thanks Beano, that's excellent help. Really appreciate it.
The bores look very good but I'll check the rings when I pop the pistons out. Not sure but I think this has done about 300,000 so it would seem like a good thing to replace them and the bigends.
I was wondering if there are sleeve kits available like I fitted to my 203. Probably quite expensive for this car I'd imagine. But a lazy answer to a lot of issues.
I'll have a search.
 
If it has done 300,000 you may be surprised at how good the pistons and liners look. Or not....only inspection will show the reality.

If they are good, you will still have slap in the ring grooves, even with new rings....it's inevitable. Both Volvo or Toyota rings will fit, but a machine shop needs to do two things : (1) machine the ring grooves wider to suit the rings (no ring slap then), and (2) chop off the end of the ring so it's a tad shorter. I know it sounds shonky but a good machine shop can do it easily. This used to be done regularly with 504s and 505s.....and not just my own.:)

You could always get some secondhand pistons, but be aware they come in different grades / weights, so you can't mix and match randomly. There are markings on the top (revealed after you gently whisk off the carbon with a wire wheel) which indicate the grade. I can't say any more detail about the grades....been too long.

I highly recommend that trick of turning around the liners.

I know you have done heaps of engine work before, and I don't know what you use for cleaning, but I use wire wheels on an electric drill for all my cleaning, from taking the carbon off valves to cleaning off the rust on the outside of liners and cleaning the top of the block.
Some people swear by those Scotch-Brite things though....

The main bearings on a 505 will be fine at that mileage, but just to be sure, pop off a cap and have a look.

PS....don't forget that the rear head bolt bolt hole on the exhaust side gets hottest and the thread on it regularly gets wonky.....look at it REALLY closely. It's screwed up many a cylinder head job when the bolt won't torque up properly. When in doubt, Helicoil. Pieces out of the thread are the tell-tale.

Cheers, dude...

Have fun putting the head back on, all in one go with the tappet gear and a couple of head bolts :D It can be done with one person, but two is better, especially when the new head gasket is sitting there.

Oh....and with the liner seals, the advice I have always used is to just use the thickest ones. No need to measure protrusion. There is a certain amount of crushability in the gasket.
I know you have done all this before but just saying it anyway...other people will be reading this eventually for advice on their own cars.
 
Last edited:
Beano said:
If it has done 300,000 you may be surprised at how good the pistons and liners look. Or not....only inspection will show the reality.

If they are good, you will still have slap in the ring grooves, even with new rings....it's inevitable. Both Volvo or Toyota rings will fit, but a machine shop needs to do two things : (1) machine the ring grooves wider to suit the rings (no ring slap then), and (2) chop off the end of the ring so it's a tad shorter. I know it sounds shonky but a good machine shop can do it easily. This used to be done regularly with 504s and 505s.....and not just my own.:)

You could always get some secondhand pistons, but be aware they come in different grades / weights, so you can't mix and match randomly. There are markings on the top (revealed after you gently whisk off the carbon with a wire wheel) which indicate the grade. I can't say any more detail about the grades....been too long.

I highly recommend that trick of turning around the liners.

I know you have done heaps of engine work before, and I don't know what you use for cleaning, but I use wire wheels on an electric drill for all my cleaning, from taking the carbon off valves to cleaning off the rust on the outside of liners and cleaning the top of the block.
Some people swear by those Scotch-Brite things though....

The main bearings on a 505 will be fine at that mileage, but just to be sure, pop off a cap and have a look.

PS....don't forget that the rear head bolt bolt hole on the exhaust side gets hottest and the thread on it regularly gets wonky.....look at it REALLY closely. It's screwed up many a cylinder head job when the bolt won't torque up properly. When in doubt, Helicoil. Pieces out of the thread are the tell-tale.

Cheers, dude...

Have fun putting the head back on, all in one go with the tappet gear and a couple of head bolts :D It can be done with one person, but two is better, especially when the new head gasket is sitting there.

Oh....and with the liner seals, the advice I have always used is to just use the thickest ones. No need to measure protrusion. There is a certain amount of crushability in the gasket.
I know you have done all this before but just saying it anyway...other people will be reading this eventually for advice on their own cars.
Click to expand...

This is a GTi engine.
It has rubber O rings for liner seals, exactly the same set up as the XU FWD engines. They don't affect the liner protrusion as they compress down. Liner protrusion is the result of the liner surface touching the block surface. If it isn't right you would need to change the liners or the block. The big ends in these engines are marginal, very large, so lubrication isn't that good. This is why the oil holes are elongated. I got coolant in the oil in one of these and ran the bearings, never would happen in an XN push rod engine. Fill the cooling system with plain water at first and let it seal, coolant finds any imperfection to get past the gasket. Then change to coolant after a few km.
 
Thanks guys.
Today I got some gasket stripper, never used that stuff before, but I managed to clean the top of the block fairly well, still need to really fine tune it but a good start. This enabled a good steel ruler across and an eyeball to check for protrusion. I found it to look quite even and acceptable using my most accurate gauge, my eyeball.
Considering Graham's info and that the sleeves are solid where they sit, I'm going to pike out on sleeve seal replacement right now and simply replace head gasket and sump gasket.
I noticed that one head bolt you mentioned Beano because it was the only dry one. I don't know how I'd see the thread in the block way down about 3 inches below the top. But I will blow them out with heavy duty air and grease them up first with Lanox and then some anti seize on the bolt threads.
I have the engine on the stand and an engine crane so planning to carefully lower the head onto the block with these tools.
Need two headbolts without heads for guides. Might get the right die and thread a cupla bits of rod.
Thanks for the advice about water versus coolant Graham.
So with any luck it will be together in a few days.
If it goes pair-shaped later I'll get another engine and work right through it with a lot more knowledge.
But there's a good chance I could get a fair run if the sleeve seals hold.

Was having trouble getting an electronic manual online. Bought one from here: EManualOnline
It's a very incomplete of service updates, not a manual at all. I'm only minutes away from dobbing them to Paypal for rippoff.

Thankfully I found this one for free:
http://peugeot505.info/files/manuals/505_wm_1986_3512_gb_01b.pdf so I'm fairly sorted that way.

Thanks again for all the help and encouragement.
 
Oh darn it....I didn't read your original post properly....a GTI series 2....different beast.

Oh well....I guess some of my advice was still relevant.
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
Fill the cooling system with plain water at first and let it seal, coolant finds any imperfection to get past the gasket. Then change to coolant after a few km.
Click to expand...

Also, when it leaks or some other minor catastrophe strikes, you don't waste your money by dumping coolant.

I think there is a lot of misinformation on this thread.
Assuming it is a douvrin motor, (one which I know very well from the Renault end of things) you are best off not touching the liners.
Measure their protrusion if you want, but doing so will just prove that it is a bullet proof tractor engine that is virtually un-killable.
I actually bought new liners once and after measuring them, threw them out, they were so poorly machined.
Went back to the original liners.

Don't over think or over engineer the head instillation. It is not that hard or that heavy.

The Renault block has little dowels so you can't really get it wrong, Not sure if the pug engineers fitted them..... but you simply assemble the head and tappet gear, drop the bolts in, and place the whole head assembly carefully on the block.
Use Hylomar or don't use it... I sometimes used it, and it still always leaked a little bit of oil up the back drivers side.

Jo
 
Oh yeah.....if there is one thing I do know about those motors, it is that oil leak...:headbang:
 
Right, got the gaskets today so the weekend's looking good.
By the way, did I mention EMO? That's Electronic Manuals Online. I did. Now escalating to a shitfight on Paypal with these fraudsters.
When I'm done I think I'll share the whole experience on Facebook. They are just crooks.

It's not the $28 at all, that means nothing. It's their bloody minded persistence that they sent me the correct manual for the vehicle but here's their claim.
This Professional Manual covers all repairs, servicing and troubleshooting procedures. It is very detailed and contains hundreds of pages with detailed photos & diagrams.
Click to expand...

Wrong! There is NO info for doing anything. They just keep repeating their little mantra that they sent me the correct manual. I'm gunna have their guts fer garters. I am hoping they will be shut down. It's just wrong that people are being fleeced probably by the minute all round the world. And they have a whole lot of endorsements on their dodgy site too which must be self generated.
 
Would that be this website ?

https://www.emanualonline.com/

If so, perhaps I too might email them. Places like this force people to fight individual battles.

But really, it's probably just some clerk in there who is too stubborn to admit that they sent you the wrong manual..
 
Beano yes that's the one. I don't think they even understand what you say to them. They are there to maintain the status quo of the company which seems to have a bloody minded attitude to never admit fault. I am hoping Paypal will have the intelligence to give them a bit of trouble.
I found a lot of reviews similar to my experience on Trustpilot, but I'm not too sure about them either. Damn internet is a pain at times and incredibly useful others. This site for instance is a great saver and a friendly place to be. Thank Dog for Aussiefrogs.
 
Dead right !!!!!! Of course the solution is easy........................ Just ignore the bloody thing as we all do.
And that advice was from a top Pug mechanic who knew the Douvrin backwards. A strong, wonderful donk that seems to go forever.:banana:
 
OOOOO! That last advice was meant for Beano's remark about RH rear engine oil leak. Sorry lads! BUT>>>>>don't we 505 afficianados all have one? Almost a family pet, sorta. Quite fond of mine. :joker:
 
Does anyone know the torque settings for the flywheel bolts on the GTI?
Also the dimensions of the bearing that sits in the end of the crankshaft behind the flywheel to support the nose of the gearbox shaft? I seem to have misplaced the old one I pulled out. I can see it's about 40mmOD and about 15mm deep and I spose I just have to measure the end of the shaft but it would need to be a slide fit of course.

Head and sump now back on.
 
Sorry this ain't much help....it's just comments.

Crikey....I had to think, relax and then think again for about 2 minutes to build up the mental electrical charge to remember the name of that thingy.

It's called a spigot bush and they're bronze.

A lot of people doing conversions from auto to manual forget to insert that.

Sorry I don't know the torque setting....do you mean the 17 mm bolts with the tiny profile which hold the flywheel to the crankshaft ?
The ones that have a large sheet metal plate with locking tabs ?
People often grind down the end of a socket for them as their profile is so small. The socket slips off really easily otherwise.
Bloody hell....the torque must be at least 30 ft/lbs but surely not more than 40.

Isn't there some kind of formula for torque based on the diameter of the bolt shaft ? :confused:
 
Last edited:
Nup Beano, on the manuals there's actually a bearing, not a bush inserted into the back of the crank, into which the gearbox shaft sits.
The flywheel bolts have 18mm heads and they aren't as thin heads as on the auto. There are 7 of them and there's no locking plate so they'll be well coated with blue loctite.
Doesn't matter I'm sure Lewin will have the info and probably the bearing as well. Thanks for your thoughts though, I really appreciate it.
Having anticipation of it running by next weekend. How excitement.
 
Dan spigot bearing is a 6203 which is the same as the front bearing on most alternators, so very common
cheers Pete
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top