504 - looking at purchasing - what to watch for?

[markb2501]

Hi everyone, I am looking around at a 504. I grew up with Mum having one (Ti - I think, not the LTi). I love the shape… have had a 505 about 25 years ago, loved it.
What do I need to look for and out for when inspecting them please? Thanks in advance

 

[neil s]

Rust

 

[Peter C]

These cars are now around 40 something years old and, unless well maintained, will have wear and tear mechanically and cosmetically - in addition to the rust. Prices have gone up dramatically over the last few years and, judging from photos in various ads, even high priced ones may need work. As Neil said, rust is a big factor, but there are rust free examples that sometimes come up, and may well be deal breaker for you.

Mechanically, they are pretty conventional and are easy to work on, although I don't know much about the availability of parts.. The Kugelfischer injection system on a Ti can be tricky to have sorted out if it has problems. If you know your way around car mechanicals, have a good look at the front suspension components for signs of wear as well as the usual things such as brake discs, etc. One weak point is the gear selector underneath the rear gearbox extension housing. It is a poor design and they are prone to leaking oil. If it does leak, it's not a deal breaker if the synchros are okay and the gearbox aren't too noisy You just need to remember to top up the oil when necessary.

 

[Beano]

Unless you are very good at working on cars yourself, I'd suggest getting another 505. There are still plenty of parts for them, even on Ebay, whereas 504 parts are getting a bit thin on the ground. And 505s had very, very few rust problems. There were greatt, that way. Less style in the interior, but what a car !

 

[markb2501]

Thanks gents! Needing to sell my 19 first. Not sure wifey will let me get the 504 without selling the 19… however, I can always ask

 

[markb2501]

These cars are now around 40 something years old and, unless well maintained, will have wear and tear mechanically and cosmetically - in addition to the rust. Prices have gone up dramatically over the last few years and, judging from photos in various ads, even high priced ones may need work. As Neil said, rust is a big factor, but there are rust free examples that sometimes come up, and may well be deal breaker for you.

Mechanically, they are pretty conventional and are easy to work on, although I don't know much about the availability of parts.. The Kugelfischer injection system on a Ti can be tricky to have sorted out if it has problems. If you know your way around car mechanicals, have a good look at the front suspension components for signs of wear as well as the usual things such as brake discs, etc. One weak point is the gear selector underneath the rear gearbox extension housing. It is a poor design and they are prone to leaking oil. If it does leak, it's not a deal breaker if the synchros are okay and the gearbox aren't too noisy You just need to remember to top up the oil when necessary.

I have one I’m trying to purloin… $ from one sale required to fund the next purchase.

 

[Pug72]

Hi Mark

I drive a 1972 504 just about every day. Most comfortable car around. I am lucky to own a rust free version that my father purchased in 1983. I know the full history of the car and I grew up with it. My father passed away 7 years ago and I took over ownership of it and been driving it just about everyday since.

If not looked after, rust can get into them. common areas are: bottom of each pillar plus where each door hinge attaches to the pillar, sills, boot floor, around rear number plate then the floors inside under the carpet.

Oil leaks can be a problem, mainly sump gasket as it is cork. Front timing chain cover does not have an oil seal around the crank, so there is always a slight weep there. It relies on an oil thrower (a cupped piece of sheet metal) on the crankshaft behind the timing cover, a "grooved" section on the pulley itself, and a comparatively small clearance between the timing cover and the pulley. With time the clearance between the pulley and the timing cover increases and you start to get oil leaks. Also need to watch the crankcase breather (on the battery side of the engine) these need to be keep clean.

The Coolant system is pretty simple and only runs at 4pds pressure. Never use a radiator cap any higher in pressure. The 504 petrol motor is a wet sleeve motor. There are seals at the bottom of each piston sleeve that will let go. Also the heater tap under the dash will blow out too. The Cylinder head has two large welsh plugs at the back of the head (against the firewall) that will leak eventually. This is a head off to repair. There is also a welchplug inside the head behind the water pump that can shift disrupting the water flow causing over heating issues. there is a easy fix for this.

Remember that the 504 heads are old school with soft valves to you will need to run a valve saver additive in the fuel.

I did change my cylinder head to a 505 head to elevate the fuel issue and the welsh plug issue.

Finding parts are not too hard and it depends on what engine and gearbox you get. I have the 2 litre petrol with solex carb mated to a ZF3HP20 automatic gearbox. To me this is a great combination. The ZF box was only in the earlier models (up to 74 I think) they used the Borg Warner which was not as good.

There are few parts suppliers in Australia. Best is one in Brisbane called Peugeotspares. There are two good overseas suppliers: Serio4 and Der Franzose. Delivery from overseas can sometimes take a while given the current world crisis's covid etc.

I still run the original solex carb which has been rebuilt a few times over the years. The ZF gets serviced once a year at a local automatice place that can still get filters and pan gaskets. I'll do all other work myself (servicing, rebuild suspension etc). Oil filters are from Supercheap. I run a Commodore VN alternator which is the modern style (internally regulated) and is 100amps.

I still run standard points in the distributor. Lots of people have issues with standard points and change to electronic, but to be honest (and touch wood) I have not replaced points in 4 years.

I've also modernised the car with air conditioning, central locking, retractable seat belts front and rear, sheep skin seat covers and even gas struts on the bonnet and boot lid.

Given the age of the car and the sentimental value, I am cautious where and how I drive it, but I always choose to drive in preference to other cars.

Few pics to get you interested

 

[Pug72]

and another pic

 

[julian c b]

Unless you are very good at working on cars yourself, I'd suggest getting another 505. There are still plenty of parts for them, even on Ebay, whereas 504 parts are getting a bit thin on the ground. And 505s had very, very few rust problems. There were greatt, that way. Less style in the interior, but what a car !

I had a couple of early 505/s and had problems with fuse boxes burning out and having to be replaced with s/h ones. never had these problems on a 504 with a much simpler fuse box. Also i found the seats too soft for my liking. These things may have been addressed on later models

 

[Beano]

Were they really early, as in pre-1983 ? I have never heard of that fuse box problem. The 505 seats I am familiar with are the 1983-85 series 1, and with a sheepskin cover, they were the most comfortable seats of any car I have been in. My passengers used to remark on this too, even without prompting from me.
When I had a long-term lower back problem from driving Ford taxis all day, I looked forward to getting into my 505 on the way home....sitting in that seat was such a relief !

One of the main 504 rust problems was also at the base of the windscreen pillar, because of the way water drained out. It could seriously weaken the A pillar. There are threads or posts here about how to fix that. The rear pillars were often affected too, but in a lesser way.

 

[julian c b]

I was talking about pre 83 [with no power steering]

 

[BP505v6Turbo]

I was talking about pre 83 [with no power steering

Doesn't matter what 505 it is they all can burn out from moisture and dodgy wiring being mated into it.

 

[luthier]

I had a 74 model in about 1980. A GL I think, went really well , best 504 I had but petrol and there was damage round the top of the shockers so a major accident had been repaired. Moved that.
Then I had a diesel that was brilliant. Another after that almost the same model, which lasted too long, became an embarrassment with all the smoke it blew. Called it 'The Grey Bastard'.
Then one from South Africa, light blue, petrol, banjo rear suspension, discs up front, drums up back, clunky. I fitted late model front struts but it never handled like a 505.
Also put a TI engine in there and that was a total disaster. Never been so close to blowing sky high. The fuel pump sent too much petrol in through the Kugelfischer and filled the engine full of petrol. Lucky I found out before it all went boom.
Kugelfischer is a total wank. It will never go as well as a properly setup 505 on Megasquirt. It is a time and moneywasting piece of shit.

 

[Ikenna351]

For me, 505 comes first before 504. Reason being the 505 body. The 505 was really a big improvement over 504 body. Aside rust issue with 504, especially the GL, the doors and their lock mechanisms can be frustrating in 504 ownership. The door openers (external and internal) break at will. Closing and opening their doors do require supporting with knees sometimes, when they choose to open. All that were sorted in 505.

Notwithstanding, will still have a 504 GL even with all his body annoyance. Just that 505 comes first.

Lion-King Monk

 

[julian c b]

I had a 74 model in about 1980. A GL I think, went really well , best 504 I had but petrol and there was damage round the top of the shockers so a major accident had been repaired. Moved that.
Then I had a diesel that was brilliant. Another after that almost the same model, which lasted too long, became an embarrassment with all the smoke it blew. Called it 'The Grey Bastard'.
Then one from South Africa, light blue, petrol, banjo rear suspension, discs up front, drums up back, clunky. I fitted late model front struts but it never handled like a 505.
Also put a TI engine in there and that was a total disaster. Never been so close to blowing sky high. The fuel pump sent too much petrol in through the Kugelfischer and filled the engine full of petrol. Lucky I found out before it all went boom.
Kugelfischer is a total wank. It will never go as well as a properly setup 505 on Megasquirt. It is a time and moneywasting piece of shit.

Maybe the return line was not allowing unused fuel to return to the tank freely. you would not have had one originally so you must have fitted a return line of some kind. On my 504 cab i have a fuel pump from a VL commodore and have not had a problem

 

[Peter C]

The fuel line and fuel return line in a Ti are of a larger diameter than the carby ones. Would the narrower lines have caused your problems?

 

[luthier]

Maybe the return line was not allowing unused fuel to return to the tank freely. you would not have had one originally so you must have fitted a return line of some kind. On my 504 cab i have a fuel pump from a VL commodore and have not had a problem

I resolved the problem by using a pressure regulator with a return back to the tank from that because the required pressure was around 28psi but the bosch pump supplied was putting out about 60psi.
However later I got the worst case of valve recession I've ever heard of on my way to deliver a motorbike to SA and barely made it home. At that point I took the Kugelfischer stuff off, fitted a restored head with a big Solex carby and it ran sweet. But that 504 was a pain all the way along and finally I sold it to some middle eastern gentlemen for $1800. I don't think it was bound for Cairo but I really couldn't care less.