27mm 505/504 swaybars Pug VS Kmac

D

davemcbean

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On my 504 I had a 27mm K-mac front swaybar with Kmac D bushes and D brackets, with a 604 19mm rear bar. Together with 505GTI springs, this gave a nicely balanced package.

On my 505 I fitted the same springs and rear bar, but kept the standard STI/GTI 27mm front bar and Pug bushes, together with negative camber struts. It felt slightly unhappy on the limit and obviously needed more stiffness in the front. I asked K-mac about making me a 28.5mm bar in the 505 pattern, but they no longer make anything betweeen 27 and 30mm.

Since I already had my 504 27mm K-mac front bar, I decided to try that on the front of the 505, with the K-mac D bushes and D brackets, hoping that the newer bar together with stiffer bushing would provide the extra stiffness I wanted. I'm pleased to say it works fantastic! Very well balanced.

The moral of the story is that if you use a Pug 27mm front bar and bushes, don't go larger than 18mm on the rear. If you want to go for a 19mm at the rear, then you must fit at the front stiffer bushes and/or a stiffer bar. Keep in mind that bars loose some stiffness with age, so a new 27mm bar will be stiffer than an old one.

I wouldn't want to go any stiffer at the front than what I have now, because it would get a bit tooo jiggly on certain types of alternating undulating bumps.

Dave

<small>[ 16 September 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
 
You can achieve the same by effectively shortening the ends of the sway bar... mounting the link closer to the chassis mount.

This give less leverage or mechanical advantage, so increases the roll stiffness.
 
increase stiffness by placing another sway bar under the original as well
been there and it worked out very well
very nice flat cornering
 
I've got the same sway bars as Dave, on my 504, 27mm K-mac front and 604 19mm rear. These made a terrific difference to the handling. On one of the cruises I was following nJm in his 505 GR... around some pretty tight corners at a quick enough pace, the 505 was just about scraping the doorhandles, but the 504 was staying nice and level.

John
 
Ray Bell:
You can achieve the same by effectively shortening the ends of the sway bar... mounting the link closer to the chassis mount.
.
Click to expand...
I've tried it with the shorter links but it doesn't line up as nicely as what I have now nor did it seem to make that much difference, but I'm sure it does if you change the length by a large enough amount.

Dave
 
pugrambo:
increase stiffness by placing another sway bar under the original as well
been there and it worked out very well
very nice flat cornering
Click to expand...
Sean,

Been there, done that before with two stock 504 26mm bars. I didn't like the reduction in ground clearance, nor the look, plus it didn't work as well as the one 27mm bar with stiff bushes.

I did see your 504 V6 setup once at your father's place at Moss Vale. You did a MUCH better job of combining the two bars than I did, but I still prefer to have just one bar providing I have one that is stiff enough.

The set-up I have now is as stiff and as flat a handling and as low as I'd want my everyday car to be without compromising comfort too much for my liking, but I do plan to go a bit further with my planned 504 2.2 EFI toy, so who knows I may toy with two bars again on that one with adjustable sliding clamps between the bars as I think from memory you made for yours.

Dave

<small>[ 16 September 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
 
peujohn:
On one of the cruises I was following nJm in his 505 GR... around some pretty tight corners at a quick enough pace, the 505 was just about scraping the doorhandles, but the 504 was staying nice and level.
John
Click to expand...
That was a fun day! I'm sure everyone who was present will be pleased to know I haven't pushed the GR that hard since then. I must admit the bodyroll has never worried me. Maybe it is because when you're driving you can brace yourself as you head into the corner. I try to use the bodyroll to shift the weight to assist cornering (although I don't doubt it would do better if it cornered flatter). I was extremely impressed by your 504 that day John. I must admit I was pretty determined to prove a stock 505 GR would be as capable as a GTi spec five oh wink .
 
Ray Bell:
Body roll never bothered me...

Locking wheels did... lack of feel did... I say stick to minimal sway bars.
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Ditto.

IMHO, lumpy roads, wet roads and dirt roads are where safe, predicable handling is most important. A more compliant suspension setup works best in these conditions because it does a better job of evenly distributing cars weight to all four wheels.

For an analogy, think of a 4 legged table on an uneven surface vs a four legged mammal. The mammal has all four legs firmly planted on the ground because it's legs have plenty of compliance, like a car with soft springs. Whereas the table has no compliance so wobbles around and is unpredicable like a car with suspension that is too stiff.
 
Exactly....

And for many of us, wasn't it this compliance that attracted us to Pugs in the first place? Their surefootedness?

Okay, some may be doing these things to transform their cars for other uses, but if your purpose is to drive on everyday roads... or on rally roads... then your best bet is to just make the original setup as good as you can.
 
I'd just like to add that after a recent experience driving a TP Magna wagon (1989 model) I've decided body roll is fine in a french car as they can match the roll with decent grip. This magna had such ponderous steering and body control. It just seemed to want to understeer no matter how slowly I drove. Absolutely horrible car!
 
Ray Bell:
but if your purpose is to drive on everyday roads... or on rally roads... then your best bet is to just make the original setup as good as you can.
Click to expand...
...which is EXACTLY my philosophy in not going any harder than the stiffest standard springs (GTI) combined with slightly stiffer swaybars, in conjunction with 195/65 tyres.

My car is no stiffer now, nor any less compliant than a STANDARD late model 404(the ideal set-up in my mind). It may not be quite as plush riding as a stock 504 or 505GR anymore, but you can still go flat out over speedhumps and corrugated roads. It can still also climb gutters, etc without scraping out.

It's all a matter of perspective. To a GTi6 owner my 505 (or a late 404) still seems to have heaps of body roll, but if you're used to a stock 504 or an early 404, then my 505 (or a late 404) feels "flat" handling by comparison.

Dave

<small>[ 20 September 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
 
nJm:
I'd just like to add that after a recent experience driving a TP Magna wagon (1989 model) I've decided body roll is fine in a french car as they can match the roll with decent grip. This magna had such ponderous steering and body control. It just seemed to want to understeer no matter how slowly I drove. Absolutely horrible car!
Click to expand...
I owned a TN Magna for a few months, until the engine died. It cornered with very little body roll, but boy was it handfull on anything but the smoothest of roads. I found the front end of the Magna was pretty well sorted, but the rear had a mind of its own. It required lots of concentration to drive at over 100 km/h on B grade sealed roads, even in a straight line, as the rear axle, located by a panhard rod, seemed to induce a kind of waddle or steering effect whenever the rear wheels hit a bump. I was never game to try my luck on dirt. The difference between the Magna and my 504 or R16 on these kind of roads is night and day. The frogs are relaxed, predictable, and just seem to become more stable as the speeds rise (in a straight line).
 
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