205 PAS vs Non PAS Steering

flock

flock

Active member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
419
Location
Brisbane, Australia
It's been a half decade since the last thread about power steering in the 205.
You oldies really talk it up. The UK boys talk it down.
I have finally experienced all 3 - non-PAS, Si PAS without assistance and full Si PAS.

My initial thoughts with the power steering was - oh my god I can actually drive and park at slow speeds now.
Then it become - this has taken all of the fun out of the steering. I can't feel corners anymore.
Now I am at the stage - remove or restrain any and all loose object in the car that may experience lateral movement

The 3.9:1 Manual rack was a bit shit I will admit. It is slow, and did not feel all that easier to turn than the Si one without assistance.
The 2.7:1 Si PAS Rack makes things way too easy now. So much so I need to learn how to control the car mid-corner again.

If it was a pure mountain climbing toy I would probably opt to go back to the Si rack without assistance. The 'magical' thing about not having power assistance is having a visceral sense of the grip through the wheel when mid-corner.

But I want to drive the car. In Brisbane, this means dealing with tight congested streets, corer store carparks and rubbernecking over the bonnet of everyone's SUV.
 
You neglected to mention the much sort after VTS rack which is 2.4:1.
 
The UK doesn’t have many cars with PAS, so they don’t really know what they’re missing. A well setup car with a 2.7 rack is hard to beat.
 
PeterT said:
The UK doesn’t have many cars with PAS, so they don’t really know what they’re missing. A well setup car with a 2.7 rack is hard to beat.
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I’m led to believe their windy B-Roads offer more of a driver experience than we get here. The thing that annoyed me most about the manual rack was the extra thought process in where I should poise my hands and arms ready for taking a 40km/h hairpin at speed.

Im guessing the extra assistance would also augment an LSD?
 
PeterT said:
You neglected to mention the much sort after VTS rack which is 2.4:1.
Click to expand...
Ah yes the VTS rack! I did look for one when I was looking for my Si PAS, as rare a rocking horse sh*t..
I bet some of you old hands have a couple tucked away for a rainy day 😉
 
I am hoping I am guilty of that. Got to locate the thing first.
 
flock said:
It's been a half decade since the last thread about power steering in the 205.
You oldies really talk it up. The UK boys talk it down.
I have finally experienced all 3 - non-PAS, Si PAS without assistance and full Si PAS.

My initial thoughts with the power steering was - oh my god I can actually drive and park at slow speeds now.
Then it become - this has taken all of the fun out of the steering. I can't feel corners anymore.
Now I am at the stage - remove or restrain any and all loose object in the car that may experience lateral movement

The 3.9:1 Manual rack was a bit shit I will admit. It is slow, and did not feel all that easier to turn than the Si one without assistance.
The 2.7:1 Si PAS Rack makes things way too easy now. So much so I need to learn how to control the car mid-corner again.

If it was a pure mountain climbing toy I would probably opt to go back to the Si rack without assistance. The 'magical' thing about not having power assistance is having a visceral sense of the grip through the wheel when mid-corner.

But I want to drive the car. In Brisbane, this means dealing with tight congested streets, corer store carparks and rubbernecking over the bonnet of everyone's SUV.
Click to expand...
I am a tad bewildered.
I would have thought that the "raison d'être" for having the car would not be the tedium of driving in suburbia but the joy of driving on a winding country road. If so, then non-PAS 2.7 is indicated. If suburban driving is prioritised, buy a second-hand cheapo whatever with feel-less electric PAS & use it for that (perhaps keeping the 205 for the occasional "C" road fang).

I don't have such a "daily driver" & cycle among the 4 toys (none have PAS). The two rear-engined Renaults have had "steering quickener"s fitted for 2.5 turns. This has been the best of many modifications to them in terms of driving enjoyment. Quick & feelful. One RER has had enough stuff shifted to the front to be near 50:50 but is still fine in slow manoevering. The Moke is closest in concept to your 205 & the heaviest of the 4 to turn at slow speeds but is still fine (perhaps I have just become inured to it over the 46 years of driving it).

cheers! Peter
 
4cvgordini said:
I am a tad bewildered.
I would have thought that the "raison d'être" for having the car would not be the tedium of driving in suburbia but the joy of driving on a winding country road. If so, then non-PAS 2.7 is indicated. If suburban driving is prioritised, buy a second-hand cheapo whatever with feel-less electric PAS & use it for that (perhaps keeping the 205 for the occasional "C" road fang).

I don't have such a "daily driver" & cycle among the 4 toys (none have PAS). The two rear-engined Renaults have had "steering quickener"s fitted for 2.5 turns. This has been the best of many modifications to them in terms of driving enjoyment. Quick & feelful. One RER has had enough stuff shifted to the front to be near 50:50 but is still fine in slow manoevering. The Moke is closest in concept to your 205 & the heaviest of the 4 to turn at slow speeds but is still fine (perhaps I have just become inured to it over the 46 years of driving it).

cheers! Peter
Click to expand...

While I agree with the notion of keeping the project car fun, it is still just a tool that takes up space in the garage and needs to be driven to earn its keep. And I can't just go for 2 hour drives in the mornings anymore, at least not until my kid gets older.

Takes me 35 mins to get to Mt Nebo / Mt Glorious with no traffic. Nowadays the weekend traffic is so atrocious it takes over an hour.
So that's 2 hours in traffic, and 30 mins of winding 'driver' roads.
Alternatively, I can shorten that travel time and have some fun on the way by beating through the back-streets, which is exactly where the PAS comes in handy.

Now that it is not a massive effort to take the car in and out of the garage, I find I am driving the 205 a lot more where I would otherwise just jump in the work car on the street. That has to be a positive.
 
OK.
I remember talking to a (Melbourne-based) previous owner of my Djet. He spoke of being occasionally able to get out of town for a fang along the Great Ocean Road past Geelong.
One merit of where I live is that it is already "out of town" & I am instantly on a lovely "C" road. (Another merit is that I have lots of room to whack up illegal sheds to accommodate the "fleet" (toys plus old FJ55 plus wife's Forester plus trailer.)
 
The non PAS 205 GTi steering doesn't give good control in my experience, too slow and goes light towards the extremes. Really only good in a straight line. The PAS GTi rack is no good either, still too slow, Si is best unless you can find a VTS rack, my actual VTS was OK but nothing really special.
 
I concur with Graham. PAS was only ever an option on GTi’s in the UK, so most know no better. I’m in the process of installing a VTS rack into my 205 race car. The Si rack was so much better than the 3.2 GTi rack. I’m hoping the VTS is even sharper. Peugeot PAS gives you the best of both worlds. Easy to park but still gives feedback at speed.
 
Well I come from an alternative French marque, R.

My oldest steed, the Fuego, had non-PAS steering originally from the factory.
The moment you put any modern sticky rubber on it that wasn’t the original metric size, it was a pig to drive, at slow speeds.

All the necessary hardware was obtained and PAS was installed.

PAS for me all the time, you still have to drive from suburbia to the so called “lovely C road”, and that experience was shite.
The joy of waking up early, wore thin pretty quickly.

The driving adapts to the assistance more so than the muscle building of non-assistance.
 
I think with a bit of effort you might have a chance of truly enjoying both worlds. Use a PAS setup but put an electric clutch on it like your A/C compressor has. You might have to employ some engineering but I don't see an immediate reason why it wouldn't work. That can be manually turned on and off as you please by a switch on the dash.

I like my non PAS early GTI but I do not go shopping in it. Occasionally, I do have to negotiate a tight parking lot but even at low speeds, it doesn't feel too heavy compared to the early 60s and 70s cars I grew up on.
 
schlitzaugen said:
I think with a bit of effort you might have a chance of truly enjoying both worlds. Use a PAS setup but put an electric clutch on it like your A/C compressor has. You might have to employ some engineering but I don't see an immediate reason why it wouldn't work. That can be manually turned on and off as you please by a switch on the dash.

I like my non PAS early GTI but I do not go shopping in it. Occasionally, I do have to negotiate a tight parking lot but even at low speeds, it doesn't feel too heavy compared to the early 60s and 70s cars I grew up on.
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I don't mind the heaviness at low speed but I find I have limited control because of the slow ratio. Same for my 505, my PAS cars are much more responsive and easier to drive than the earlier cars.
 
Mine is a daily driver and I think the longer ratio gives more precision due to finer adjustment so to speak. I like it that way.

That said, I have seen most cars with factory PAS are impossible to steer if the PS does not work. The 205 is not one if these. Would be curious how hard it is to steer a PAS 205 if this happened.
 
Having driven that particular car with no power steering its much like a normal 205 gti albeit a little more precise with shorter turns ratio. Really good at speed and heavy on the slow side. I have very fond memories of my 205 and its certainty / direct steering before maggot got his hands on it. Will be good soon enough.
 
schlitzaugen said:
Mine is a daily driver and I think the longer ratio gives more precision due to finer adjustment so to speak. I like it that way.

That said, I have seen most cars with factory PAS are impossible to steer if the PS does not work. The 205 is not one if these. Would be curious how hard it is to steer a PAS 205 if this happened.
Click to expand...

The trick with driving a PS rack without assistance is fully removing the piston so you are not fighting fluid pressure.

Curious to know if bypassing the piston hydraulically via a solenoid would achieve the same effect and what the circuit would look like.
 
I prefer the PAS quicker rack with the assistance removed. A little heavy at low speeds, especially with the negative camber and more caster in our car, but great feedback and hardly noticeable effort at speeds above 40 km/h
 
You get less kick back and rattle with PAS and the racks last forever.
 
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