205 Brake Bleeding (again or still)

[pottsy]

OK, the time had come to replace the fluid in the Project car since it's been sitting for so long.

Sucked out the reservoir(s) and refilled with new fluid.
Pressed Mrs P into service as a pedal presser and bled both front calipers until bubble free and clean fluid emerging.
Topped up MC reservoir.
Went to left rear and achieved some throughput, not convincingly good but enough to move new fluid in I reckon.
Right hand assembly. Nothing comes out! Bugger.
Mrs P went back to her daily doing while I thought about it and decided to have a short drive up and down the street anyway.
Brakes: good pedal feel, just not really good retardation. OK, may be the pads, I'll fit new ones any way but let's chase this further.

Up on the hoist again and back wheels off. Strip the rear brakes. Dismantle wheel cylinders and they're really dirty inside, but only stiff, not seized. Clean, hone and reassemble, all good so far.

Created a home brew pressure bleeder connected to a 5psi source. Fronts. bleed lovely. Left rear bleeds lovely. Right rear still being a mongrel.

I think I've narrowed it down to the right rear flexible hose. Nothing coming out of it. I'm discounting the pressure limiter (Found it under the bonnet), the longitudinal pipe and the tee piece above the beam.

When I get enthused enough to squeeze hands and fingers in there I'll (try to) disconnect the pressure end of the flex hose and confirm the above. In the meantime I'm thinking new flex pipes all around might be prudent.

The brake pedal feels good, however, but obviously without any pressure getting to the right rear the self adjusting can't operate. That's a secondary consideration once I get fluid coming through.

Can't believe a simple split system brake setup is fighting me back so much.

Oh, and it's not diagonally split as far as I can tell (Haynes thinks it is!) and realistically I can't see any reason why it would need to be.

Ah well, learning curves are never flat!

Oh and for reference, three port master cylinder, discs front drums rear. Rear slaves Girling pattern, but Lockheed embossed on them!

Cheers, Pottsy

 

[JohnW]

I've had interal failures in hoses before now...... Acted like a one-way valve, in my case locking one wheel not the opposite.

 

[pottsy]

Yep. Right rear pressure hose blocked. Presumably collapsed internally.

Murphy strikes again. I found a left rear flexible hose in the spares box, but not a right one. I was thinking I could at least get it together while awaiting supply of new ones. Guess what. It's different side to side!

A phone call to EAI first thing Monday I think, otherwise a chase around.

Cheers, Pottsy

 

[JohnW]

Yep. Right rear pressure hose blocked. Presumably collapsed internally.

Murphy strikes again. I found a left rear flexible hose in the spares box, but not a right one. I was thinking I could at least get it together while awaiting supply of new ones. Guess what. It's different side to side!

A phone call to EAI first thing Monday I think, otherwise a chase around.

Cheers, Pottsy

You wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry!

 

[RINGER]

Yep. Right rear pressure hose blocked. Presumably collapsed internally.

Murphy strikes again. I found a left rear flexible hose in the spares box, but not a right one. I was thinking I could at least get it together while awaiting supply of new ones. Guess what. It's different side to side!

A phone call to EAI first thing Monday I think, otherwise a chase around.

Cheers, Pottsy

Don't use old stuff especially even NOS hoses. They have deteriorated & not safe! JG.

 

[pottsy]

John (ringer). Never suggested I would use an old hose permanently. I used the phrase "get it together while awaiting supply of new ones". I do want to be able to drive the car on and off the hoist while waiting.

I'm well aware of the safety aspects of braking systems, hence the fluid change etc.

Cheers, Pottsy.

 

[RINGER]

Something about Forums is that many read & learn from contributions/comments other than those directly related to the OP's request.
That passing on of valuable older generation knowledge is disappearing.
Especially to those coming on & not familiar with these type, especially safety related, things.
DON'T USE OLD, ESPECIALY USED OR YEARS OLD NOS BRAKE HOSES.
Most approved are printed/date marked with relevant info.

 

[PeterT]

I had the local brake place supply certified braided hoses. They were $160 per pair from memory.

 

[JohnW]

I had the local brake place supply certified braided hoses. They were $160 per pair from memory.

My approach exactly.

 

[Jared]

I had the local brake place supply certified braided hoses. They were $160 per pair from memory.

And that’s the advice I took. Handed the place down the road my old ones got new ones a few days later

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

I had the local brake place supply certified braided hoses. They were $160 per pair from memory.

I've had braided hoses fail, never use them again, pretty frightening.

 

[PeterT]

I've had braided hoses fail, never use them again, pretty frightening.

Were they home made Graham? I've started making my own for the race car. You couldn't do that for a street car however.

 

[JohnW]

I've had braided hoses fail, never use them again, pretty frightening.

I've heard of planes crashing too. These hoses are made to an Australian standard and used widely. I'm sure it was a shock when one failed but I wouldn't use that as an argument against braided hoses. Your call of course.

 

[pottsy]

OK we progress.

After a bit of searching I came up with possible replacements for the two hoses.

Just to recap, the RH rear flex hose has female fittings each end, while the left hand one has female and male.

With help from a couple of gurus at EAI I've come up with these replacements. They're not perfect match, but seem to work and I can't see why they won't do the job for a long time to come.

RH one is a female to female which is slightly shorter than the original, but still fits, albeit a bit tighter than I'd really like. That being said, it's tightest at full down suspension travel and even then it's not so tight it kinks the hose. I judiciously re-bent the mountings at either end to optimise the angles.

LH one is the right length and almost the right fittings. Male end is fine, but the female end lacks the hex and the collar of the original fitting. I've crafted a clamping assembly which holds it in the right spot and prevents ant movement where movement is undesirable.

Both are brand new items, one for AX Citroen and the other for 405 Pug.

Here's a couple of pics to explain further.

On a related note, can anyone enlighten me in regard to the self adjusting mechanism of the rear drums? I understand how the ratchet is supposed to work but I'm unclear how one is supposed to "fine tune" the adjustment.
Does one hold the brake pedal down and operate the handbrake?
Does one operate the hand brake and pump the pedal?
Does one simply pump the pedal and it all works like magic?

I've manually adjusted them up until the drum just touches, but remain confused as to how it progresses from there.

Cheers for now, Pottsy.

 

[pottsy]

Oh, and as far as SS braided hoses go, I don't want to have to argue with the RWC tester, so I've tried to stay close to original at this stage. There may be a set of braided jobbies in the future, but not until it's on the road at least.

 

[RINGER]

Lots of effort when I'd just go to Pirtek with the samples & walk out with 2 brand new ones made & tested [certified]. 2022 branded hose!

 

[schlitzaugen]

[...]

On a related note, can anyone enlighten me in regard to the self adjusting mechanism of the rear drums? I understand how the ratchet is supposed to work but I'm unclear how one is supposed to "fine tune" the adjustment.
Does one hold the brake pedal down and operate the handbrake?
Does one operate the hand brake and pump the pedal?
Does one simply pump the pedal and it all works like magic?

I've manually adjusted them up until the drum just touches, but remain confused as to how it progresses from there.

Cheers for now, Pottsy.

You pull the handbrake as you normally would and it adjusts like magic.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Were they home made Graham? I've started making my own for the race car. You couldn't do that for a street car however.

They were a set I bought from the UK. Braid got damaged and plastic extruded out. Need to cover external lines with plastic tube I think.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

OK we progress.

After a bit of searching I came up with possible replacements for the two hoses.

Just to recap, the RH rear flex hose has female fittings each end, while the left hand one has female and male.

With help from a couple of gurus at EAI I've come up with these replacements. They're not perfect match, but seem to work and I can't see why they won't do the job for a long time to come.

RH one is a female to female which is slightly shorter than the original, but still fits, albeit a bit tighter than I'd really like. That being said, it's tightest at full down suspension travel and even then it's not so tight it kinks the hose. I judiciously re-bent the mountings at either end to optimise the angles.

LH one is the right length and almost the right fittings. Male end is fine, but the female end lacks the hex and the collar of the original fitting. I've crafted a clamping assembly which holds it in the right spot and prevents ant movement where movement is undesirable.

Both are brand new items, one for AX Citroen and the other for 405 Pug.

Here's a couple of pics to explain further.

On a related note, can anyone enlighten me in regard to the self adjusting mechanism of the rear drums? I understand how the ratchet is supposed to work but I'm unclear how one is supposed to "fine tune" the adjustment.
Does one hold the brake pedal down and operate the handbrake?
Does one operate the hand brake and pump the pedal?
Does one simply pump the pedal and it all works like magic?

I've manually adjusted them up until the drum just touches, but remain confused as to how it progresses from there.

Cheers for now, Pottsy.

I thought they were supposed to adjust when stopping going backwards, never worked for me though. I usually have to poke a screwdriver through a bolt hole in the drum and fiddle around with the rachet device. Much easier to have proper adjusters.

 

[Matthew]

And if you look at the handbrake there is lots of adjustment under the central cover in between the front seats, lots of it..