DS Ups & Downs

pottsy

Citroen Loony & BMC Nutter.
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OK, I know this is a long description, but please bear with me as I need some input.

At last I had the opportunity to do some checks on the D. I removed the front spheres and checked their pressures on the old Trusty Tester. Down to around 200 psi. Out of the cupboard came the CX ones I had stashed away. One tested at 850 psi and the other at over 1000. A bit suss and maybe too high, but I thought I'd give them a go anyway. Changing went OK. Car drove OK, front certainly felt "floatier" than before. OK, sez I, let's check the rears. Same thing, both down around the 100 mark. Put the other 2 CX ones in, testing around the 450 mark. So far so good.

When I put the suspension down to normal after doing the rears, the front refused to drop from full height. With no pressure in the system (height control on lowest, bleed valve open) the front still aimed for the sky. Driving it over a couple of gentle bumps failed to persuade it either.

Up in the air again, take off the covers and suss out the height corrector (HC). The only way I could get the front pressure down was to bleed the pressure from the front HC. I removed this and checked its flow through with compressed air and it seems OK. The three states of flow, up, down and hold correspond to the three positions of the shuttle. OK, put it back in and check it out. At this stage I decided to return to the best one of the D spheres and replaced the over 1000 psi CX sphere on spec. (Just in case this was causing trouble. Still tests OK on the tester however)

This time I have no front suspension pressure at all! Back rises and falls normally. The front steadfastly refuses to budge. I've bled the pressure through with the bleed valve on the pressure regulator, and I've cycled the lever up and down a few times. Still no height.

Now I'm sure I'm missing something basic and simple, but it's too damn hot to fiddle out there any more tonight, so I'm appealing to the Brains Trust.

A couple of questions if I may. Should I see much physical movement of the lever connecting to the HC? (The fork arrangement connected to the anti roll bar, and the control linkage, which moves the ball on the end.) This seems strangely static making me wonder if in fact the anti-roll bar is seized in some way.

Is there a more detailed way of bleeding the suspension after draining it like I have? There was a sound of rushing air through the HC once I closed the bleed valve and the pump came on load.

Hope someone can supply some info. Or maybe wave a magic wand and fix it remotely?

Cheers, Pottsy
 
It's nothing to do with the spheres or bleeding. With moving the height control lever up 'n' down you have probably 'popped' a seized linkage out of place. check all the rods/linkages from the height lever down the the front height corrector and you'll no doubt find the problem :banana:

seeya,
Shane L.
PS: She ride much better if you regass the DSspheres, CX spheres have different valving in the head of the sphere, this is one of the main reasons CX's aren't as smooth as DS's.
 
pottsy said:
OK, I know this is a long description, but please bear with me as I need some input.



This time I have no front suspension pressure at all! Back rises and falls normally. The front steadfastly refuses to budge. I've bled the pressure through with the bleed valve on the pressure regulator, and I've cycled the lever up and down a few times. Still no height.


A couple of questions if I may. Should I see much physical movement of the lever connecting to the HC? (The fork arrangement connected to the anti roll bar, and the control linkage, which moves the ball on the end.) This seems strangely static making me wonder if in fact the anti-roll bar is seized in some way.

Is there a more detailed way of bleeding the suspension after draining it like I have? There was a sound of rushing air through the HC once I closed the bleed valve and the pump came on load.

Hope someone can supply some info. Or maybe wave a magic wand and fix it remotely?

Cheers, Pottsy

Hi Pottsy, Sorry mate...no Magic wands here.
It sounds like you have a fair bit of air still in the system. I'd begin by checking the manual and doing a 4 wheel brake bleed....which is pretty simple and easy...and make sure there is plenty of LHM - green-( or LHS - red - ) in the reservoir to begin with, so you dont suck air into the system as you try to prime it.
You might have a jammed or stuck HC...but be really careful under there if you go fiddling with it..make sure you mark it's original position with a scribe before you begin so you can put it back if the problem turns out to have a different cause, and be SURE to have the car up on BLOCKS or axle stands so you don't get yourself killed . :nownow:
The rear suspension is linked to the brakes system in the D, so if there is a strange rear height problem it might be caused by air in the system. And if there is heaps of air in the system it might be nitrogen that has escaped from a ruptured flat accumulator. Run the car for 10 minutes at idle with the accumulator open, then closed, then open etc etc.
Cheers...George. :cheers: :cool:
 
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Guys,

the hydraulics should still work, even with horendous amounts of air in the hydraulics system. The vital factor is the feed line to pump has no air leaks (which it doesn't as you have hydraulic pressure). If you mechanically move the height corrector you will find the front will pop right up --ie: it'll probably be linkages.

The brakes will just have a hhhhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggeeeeeeee delay if you get heaps of air in them.

Think linkage :D either that or the front height corrector is seized due to being full of black muck ... Unlikely as they'll usually still move a little.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
OK

Thanks guys.

As far as the "popped" linkage goes, the movement of the lever at the HC end seems to be normal, in that it corresponds to movements of the control lever. (I hijacked one of the Sons to move it while I looked.) I'll still trace it through, however. I also plan to check the ARB bearings, as it occurred to me that maybe this is not moving like it should. At least giving it a grease won't be wasted effort.

I theorised at one stage that one of the CX spheres may have ruptured after fitting, causing the excess pressure to be "behind" the HC and stopping it from releasing the pressure when the lever was dropped. Like all good theories this one failed to have any solid fact backing it up. (But the theory gained weight when I was bleeding the pressure from the HC and it was all bubbly.) The spheres still checkout OK on the Trusty Tester.

I assumed that the damper valving was different on CX's, but it was sorta Hobson's choice since they're the only spare spheres I have lying around. I plan to go and talk to a mate with a few spares on the weekend.

After consulting the manual I'm beginning to think that I have upset the adjustment of the HC. I'm VERY aware of the dangers of adjusting this. The car will have a couple of lumps of solid redgum (slightly thinner than nominal ride height) under it before I attempt any juggling. Another thought that occurred was to put all four wheels on ramps so that even if it did drop suddenly, there'd still be room underneath. Mind you, I DON'T want to be under the thing even then! (And I don't plan to be either!)

Either way tomorrow's another day, and the brain may work better in the cool of the morning. I'll give the long idling concept a go then.

I was looking forward to a relaxing D drive after thrashing (sorry, driving spiritedly!) the Mini around Tasmania for the past week. Man, have they got some pearlers of roads!
 
pottsy said:
OK

Thanks guys.

As far as the "popped" linkage goes, the movement of the lever at the HC end seems to be normal, in that it corresponds to movements of the control lever. (I hijacked one of the Sons to move it while I looked.) I'll still trace it through, however. I also plan to check the ARB bearings, as it occurred to me that maybe this is not moving like it should. At least giving it a grease won't be wasted effort.

I theorised at one stage that one of the CX spheres may have ruptured after fitting, causing the excess pressure to be "behind" the HC and stopping it from releasing the pressure when the lever was dropped. Like all good theories this one failed to have any solid fact backing it up. (But the theory gained weight when I was bleeding the pressure from the HC and it was all bubbly.) The spheres still checkout OK on the Trusty Tester.

I assumed that the damper valving was different on CX's, but it was sorta Hobson's choice since they're the only spare spheres I have lying around. I plan to go and talk to a mate with a few spares on the weekend.

After consulting the manual I'm beginning to think that I have upset the adjustment of the HC. I'm VERY aware of the dangers of adjusting this. The car will have a couple of lumps of solid redgum (slightly thinner than nominal ride height) under it before I attempt any juggling. Another thought that occurred was to put all four wheels on ramps so that even if it did drop suddenly, there'd still be room underneath. Mind you, I DON'T want to be under the thing even then! (And I don't plan to be either!)

Either way tomorrow's another day, and the brain may work better in the cool of the morning. I'll give the long idling concept a go then.

I was looking forward to a relaxing D drive after thrashing (sorry, driving spiritedly!) the Mini around Tasmania for the past week. Man, have they got some pearlers of roads!


Do BX spheres fit?
Graham
 
pottsy said:
OK I was looking forward to a relaxing D drive after thrashing (sorry, driving spiritedly!) the Mini around Tasmania for the past week. Man, have they got some pearlers of roads!

Yes indeed, the roads there are much fun, sadly, the car I was driving last time I was there, wasn't!!! (24 year old datsun bluebird!)
john s
 
It's Alive!

The beast is back again. Thanks for all the replies.

In the clear light (and cool air) of a new morning, I could see that I had put the ball end of the height corrector back on 90 degrees out of whack. This resulted in jamming of the operating fork and prevented the whole shebang from working correctly. I imagine the sigh of relief and shout of joy were audible all the way to Sydney!

As far as BX spheres are concerned, Graham, I have no idea whether they fit or not. I will have the original D spheres re-gassed anyway and simply hold the CX ones in reserve. She certainly rides better, particularly over speed humps, with more gas in the squidgy bits!

She seems to be holding height for longer too, as well as not cycling the pressure regulator as often. All bonuses!

Thanks again for the help peoples! Until the next crisis, Au Revoir!
 
pottsy said:
The beast is back again. Thanks for all the replies.

In the clear light (and cool air) of a new morning, I could see that I had put the ball end of the height corrector back on 90 degrees out of whack. This resulted in jamming of the operating fork and prevented the whole shebang from working correctly. I imagine the sigh of relief and shout of joy were audible all the way to Sydney!

As far as BX spheres are concerned, Graham, I have no idea whether they fit or not. I will have the original D spheres re-gassed anyway and simply hold the CX ones in reserve. She certainly rides better, particularly over speed humps, with more gas in the squidgy bits!

She seems to be holding height for longer too, as well as not cycling the pressure regulator as often. All bonuses!

Thanks again for the help peoples! Until the next crisis, Au Revoir!


If they fit you can have the ones out of mine.
Graham
 
Hi Graham,

all spheres are interchangable and will fit on any hydraulic Citroen. The difference is gas pressure (not criticle) and the valve you can see in the head of the sphere. The valve will be dramatically different for a BX as compared to a DS. eg: if you had put BX16valve spheres under the rear of the tri it would have been much firmer ... ie: oversteer would have been much more prevelant :confused:

seeya
Shane L.
PS: I'm sure you'll have no problems selling BX19tri spheres to another BX owner :D
 
DoubleChevron said:
Hi Graham,

all spheres are interchangable and will fit on any hydraulic Citroen. The difference is gas pressure (not criticle) and the valve you can see in the head of the sphere. The valve will be dramatically different for a BX as compared to a DS. eg: if you had put BX16valve spheres under the rear of the tri it would have been much firmer ... ie: oversteer would have been much more prevelant :confused:

seeya
Shane L.
PS: I'm sure you'll have no problems selling BX19tri spheres to another BX owner :D

I had a good response but no takers for the spheres yet.
Graham
 
Thanks Graham. They may be worth a try for the Ampol. Increasing the damping rate is attractive given the otherwise floaty nature of the DS. I imagine she's going to look pretty spectacular in the motorkhanas anyway!
 
Hi Pottsy,

a better bet would be to get some DS spheres with removable valves. You can then change the valve shims to get the ride/handling comprimise you want (only DS's have the removable valves, none of the later hydraulic Cit's do).

I'm not sure how BX sphere's would handle on a DS :confused: Given the BX has crappy strut suspension and weighs considerably less than the DS it'd be interesting to try them.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
DoubleChevron said:
Hi Pottsy,

a better bet would be to get some DS spheres with removable valves. You can then change the valve shims to get the ride/handling comprimise you want (only DS's have the removable valves, none of the later hydraulic Cit's do).

I'm not sure how BX sphere's would handle on a DS :confused: Given the BX has crappy strut suspension and weighs considerably less than the DS it'd be interesting to try them.

seeya,
Shane L.

I wouldn't try them if you want a stiffer ride, these are super soft. You could really feel the antiroll bars doing their stuff and the bottoming out on bumps was horrific.
Is this normal for a TRI or are these spheres stuffed.?
Graham
 
I'd say someones fitted GS spheres to improve ride confort. No wonder you thought it was an understeering pig :roflmao: :roflmao:

I've NEVER bottomed my BX19tri out, and there was someone who was doing quite well rallying a BX19gt down at Daylesford (I think). The BXgt is just a TRi with carby instead of injection.

Another possibility is someone has "drilled" the center hole in the sphere valve larger to improve ride comfort. Not a good idea really as apparantly it just make the car "wallow" more :confused:

If you hadn't crashed it I'm could have sent you the spheres off my standard Tri to try (it really is only a 5minute job to swap 'em over).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
DoubleChevron said:
I'd say someones fitted GS spheres to improve ride confort. No wonder you thought it was an understeering pig :roflmao: :roflmao:

I've NEVER bottomed my BX19tri out, and there was someone who was doing quite well rallying a BX19gt down at Daylesford (I think). The BXgt is just a TRi with carby instead of injection.

Another possibility is someone has "drilled" the center hole in the sphere valve larger to improve ride comfort. Not a good idea really as apparantly it just make the car "wallow" more :confused:

If you hadn't crashed it I'm could have sent you the spheres off my standard Tri to try (it really is only a 5minute job to swap 'em over).

I never said I crashed it, just the drive shaft started making horrible noises and the exhaust broke. The car was bought from Pickles as a write off (rear quarter damage) and I thought I'd try it out since it was a going concern.
Back to plan A!
No way the car had been played with as far as I can see, a very original low km car.
Graham
 
Hi Graham,

I assume the car is now in bits being wrecked. But I don't doubt for a second you have the wrong spheres on the car. Citroen 'specialists' have been known to fit all sorts of spheres to the same car. Just ask Alan what spheres were on his CX and BX when he purchased them (being 'specialist' maintained cars) I'm talking different spheres from different cars all around leading to very dangerous handling (equivelant of having different springs/shockers on the same axle on a normal car :eek: :eek: ).

Infact I'd even go to the extend of whipping the spheres off to ensure someone hasn't fitted an accumulator sphere on one of the wheels. My ID19 behaved as you described and it was found to have an accumulator on the right hand front wheel ....... ie: no valve in the sphere (which is the same as a soft spring with no shocker attached on a normal car :eek: ).

Spheres are nothing special or difficult, all you need is roughly the right ones for your car, I ran GS spheres on my BX a couple of months and it was quite soft, not sure if it was as soft as you describe though.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
How's this for weird?

After I had thought all was fixed, (see above) No 3 son was showing the amazing hydropneumatic trick to a mate when lo and behold, the front stayed up and defied all attempts to get it down.

My first thought was that someone had slipped a viagra pill into the LHM, but then I got real and started to look at reasons why the excess pressure wasn't returning to the tank.

Those familiar with the DS will know there's a siamesed pipe taking the return pressure from the front height corrector and, I think, the return from the rear one as well. Would you believe this pipe was blocked between the front HC and the siamese join?

Not only was it blocked, but it was blocked with about 4 inches of wire just a bit smaller in diameter than the pipe itself. My theory is that some ham fisted person had tried to clean the pipe for some reason and broken the wire in there. Apparently there was enough clearance for everything to drain slowly past the offending wire, but when I started fiddling it must have blocked it off completeley.

Naturally, discovering the wire was the result of having to cut the pipe looking for the blockage, and also to repair the hole in the side of the pipe that I put there trying to drill out what I thought was a small bit of dirt in the pipe. Nothing in the Citroen life is easy!

I hope to obtain a replacement for this unit tomorrow, and when time and skill allows I'll post a photo or two of the amazing find!

I assume that once the pressure can flow joyfully back to the tank, then my front suspension should behave well once again. Fingers crossed!
 
pottsy said:
How's this for weird?

After I had thought all was fixed, (see above) No 3 son was showing the amazing hydropneumatic trick to a mate when lo and behold, the front stayed up and defied all attempts to get it down.

My first thought was that someone had slipped a viagra pill into the LHM, but then I got real and started to look at reasons why the excess pressure wasn't returning to the tank.

Those familiar with the DS will know there's a siamesed pipe taking the return pressure from the front height corrector and, I think, the return from the rear one as well. Would you believe this pipe was blocked between the front HC and the siamese join?

Not only was it blocked, but it was blocked with about 4 inches of wire just a bit smaller in diameter than the pipe itself. My theory is that some ham fisted person had tried to clean the pipe for some reason and broken the wire in there. Apparently there was enough clearance for everything to drain slowly past the offending wire, but when I started fiddling it must have blocked it off completeley.

Naturally, discovering the wire was the result of having to cut the pipe looking for the blockage, and also to repair the hole in the side of the pipe that I put there trying to drill out what I thought was a small bit of dirt in the pipe. Nothing in the Citroen life is easy!

I hope to obtain a replacement for this unit tomorrow, and when time and skill allows I'll post a photo or two of the amazing find!

I assume that once the pressure can flow joyfully back to the tank, then my front suspension should behave well once again. Fingers crossed!


I had a leak in the hydraulics of the BX. Upon investigation I found that one of the metal pipes was joined by a piece of rubber tube with clamps. It seems to have been original as there was a ridge in the pipe to stop the rubber tube coming off.
I just cut and rejoined the rubber hose thus solving the problem
Graham
 
pottsy said:
How's this for weird?

After I had thought all was fixed, (see above) No 3 son was showing the amazing hydropneumatic trick to a mate when lo and behold, the front stayed up and defied all attempts to get it down.

My first thought was that someone had slipped a viagra pill into the LHM, but then I got real and started to look at reasons why the excess pressure wasn't returning to the tank.

Those familiar with the DS will know there's a siamesed pipe taking the return pressure from the front height corrector and, I think, the return from the rear one as well. Would you believe this pipe was blocked between the front HC and the siamese join?

Not only was it blocked, but it was blocked with about 4 inches of wire just a bit smaller in diameter than the pipe itself. My theory is that some ham fisted person had tried to clean the pipe for some reason and broken the wire in there. Apparently there was enough clearance for everything to drain slowly past the offending wire, but when I started fiddling it must have blocked it off completeley.

Naturally, discovering the wire was the result of having to cut the pipe looking for the blockage, and also to repair the hole in the side of the pipe that I put there trying to drill out what I thought was a small bit of dirt in the pipe. Nothing in the Citroen life is easy!

I hope to obtain a replacement for this unit tomorrow, and when time and skill allows I'll post a photo or two of the amazing find!

I assume that once the pressure can flow joyfully back to the tank, then my front suspension should behave well once again. Fingers crossed!

Strange,

you know some DS's deliberately had a wire inserted into the hydaulic pressure line that interconnected the front suspension (at least that was my understanding) this was to slightly slow the response of the suspension by causing the fluid to flow more slowly :confused:

I think you should look at the height corrector linkages again. When the lever is moved inside the car does the metal rod through the height corrector move ??

Do yourself a favour, unclip the height control mechanism from the height corrector. Now mechanically move the height corrector manually with your fingers. If the car goes up & down the hydraulics are fine, it's still a linkage problem.

The height corrector is a really, really simple slide valve, push it one way and it will vent pressure to the reseviour (so the car lowers) slide it the other way and it allows high pressure from the pump to enter the suspension circuit lifting the car.

good luck !
Shane L.
 
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