20+ years on - how many 605s still in regular use?

[505604]

Noisy mufflers and worn brakes are par for the course when you buy a 20+ yr old car.

I’m sure that he was expecting a few things, but a seller who tells the truth about the car is always appreciated. And, as I indicated, the exhaust doesn’t seem to me to be noisy. But my understanding of the Mexican RWC system is that it isn’t a system. It’s more like a hotchpotch. And everyone makes up their own rules as they go along. What one tester fails, the next one passes with no problems.

The rotors on the XM were so thin I really don't know how it had been passing rego for the last 5+ years!

Maybe the seller took off the good rotors and swapped them with some old, nearly worn out rotors?

The brake pedal shouldn't be spongy - I think your friend should start by getting the brake fluid changed (which will involve bleeding each wheel, so that should eliminate any air). He might also need to investigate replacing the flexible brake lines. HEL Performance made new (braided steel) ones for me - hopefully they've kept the specifications for future customers!

Yes, I think that I’ve already been lined up to assist him with the task of bleeding.
Do you have contact information for that company, please?

My 605 came with a very poor service history - more a history of neglect - but a policy of 'overservicing' on my part has been rewarded. Shiny paint and excellent upholstery does not equate to mechanical perfection.

Your car had shiny paint and excellent upholstery, too!?!?
It might be a known tactic for selling a 605.

My advice to your friend would be to assume (unless he has receipts to prove otherwise) that his 'new' 25 year old 605 is overdue for a thorough service. The good news is that there is no timing belt! However he should at least check, and/or change:

* Engine oil and filter
* Air & fuel filters
* Spark plugs and plug leads
* Coolant
* Accessory belts (I think there are 3). Power steering belt is particularly prone to squealing
* Auto transmission fluid (this may need repeating several times at short intervals) - make sure filter (strainer) is cleaned
* Power steering fluid (just as important as the others)
* Brake rotors and pads (don't forget it has drum rear brakes for the hand brake - inside the rear disk rotor for the foot brake)
* Brake fluid
* Radiator cooling fans - both should come on at low speed at about 90C, and when air conditioning is operating

** Others please add things I have forgotten

This is a great list. Thank you so much. I’m going to pass on the whole post, but I’ll highlight this list.

I have not had problems with exhaust pipes as such, but all mufflers have been replaced. DO NOT allow the muffler man to put a cheap hot-dog in place of the middle muffler - it will produce an annoying droning noise just at the speed you want to cruise at.

I have experience of a hot-dog muffler on one of my 504s. I couldn’t wait to get it off!
But I was doing some research on 605 exhausts the other day and came across a crowd in Perth (three locations there) who specifically mentioned the 605. I couldn’t believe my eyes! I contacted them on behalf of my mate, asking them about their services. Unfortunately, they want the car, as they custom fit the exhaust. I did suggest to my friend that I’d take the 605 for a drive, but he hasn’t got back to me on that one.

I strongly recommend that your friend should acquire an ignition module and a distributor cap as spares - he will need one or other (or both) sooner or later. A faulty ignition module will play up when the engine is hot; the distributor cap will do the same initially, then as it get worse the engine will misfire at any temperature. Don't rely on 2nd hand parts for these two - they are essentially consumables, and 2nd hand ones will probably fail soon after you fit them (guess how I know this)!

First guess is that you tried the second hand parts route and you got stranded on a cold, wet, (or snowing) night near Guyra. How did I go?

Where do you purchase these items? Are they genuine only, or is there something aftermarket?

If the aircon ever needs regassing, make sure the mechanic checks the pressures, as I have a theory that the weight of gas specified in tables used by mechanics is too low - too little gas leads to inadequate cooling.

Funny you mention that. The air conditioning was one of the biggest problems that he experienced, and it kept on being a problem for most of the time that he owned the first 605.

My 605 just started almost instantly after 8 weeks in cold storage - left to overwinter in a large, dry, but unheated shed on the Northern Tablelands (and 59 Floride will tell you how cold the winters are up here).

I don’t need anyone to tell me about cold winters on the Northern Tablelands. My sister and her family lived in Armidale on and off from the early 70s until the early 2000s, I think is when they left for the last time.

The old girl is far from perfect (leather seats rather hard - despite application of several leather dressings - and stitching is starting to go, speedo takes 10+ km to 'warm up' before it works, various dents and scratches - some from hitting roos), but it is still a wonderful relaxing cruiser.

I have to say that when I first got my 605, it didn't seem all that special. It's the kind of car that you appreciate more the longer you own it, and the longer the trip. If your friend finds his car a bit underpowered, tell him to check the throttle cable free play. There's a story there if any one is interested...

I’m interested.
And it isn’t that the car was underpowered, but it wouldn’t kick down. He’s adjusted the accelerator cable to allow the kick down to come into position.

I’ve had many a car which have various dents and scratches and scrapes. Yes, some of them are from kangaroos. If I had had to get all of them fixed, I would be uninsurable. As it was, one company refused to reinsure me when I owned the 604. Two encounters with kangaroos in a year (much less than a year) probably put too much of a dent in their profits. But Shannons has never complained about the kangaroos I’ve hit. I can’t help it if they won’t look before they cross the road!

Thank you so much for this detailed post, Alec. I appreciate it, and I know that James will, too.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[Armidillo]

Shiny paint etc? no - my 605 was low km when I bought it in 2009 (c. 72,000km - 195,000 now), but had belonged to an old lady who had had a stroke - as a result she was prone to scraping the LH side. Also, even though it had lived in Launceston, it had been left out in the sun too much, and the leather was already damaged.

On the positive side, the original clear coat has not peeled, so paint could be far worse! I have to assume that the 605 (& hopefully the XM) got a premium paint job!

Re. brake hoses - https://au.helperformance.com/auto#kit_manufacturer=752&p=30 provide a good service. I am pretty sure I had to send them the hoses from a 605 for them to copy (I have a 'spare' one), but they now list them. You can order on-line, but better to ring them, as they didn't contact me when there was a problem, but left it to me to ring them when nothing seemed to be happening.

Re. businesses listing the 605 - Hayman Reece still listed the 605 when I was looking for a towbar a few years ago, but they backpedaled very quickly when I tried to order one! Fortunately Salman came good with one...

Re. the ignition parts - the ignition is a Bosch system, and so items are available from non-PSA sources. I have to confess that I haven't bought an ignition module (Addo lent me one, which helped me prove that it wasn't the problem), although I found one stocked by an online store when I looked. My 605 went through a period of starting fine, and allowing me to drive into town, which takes about 10 minutes - enough to let the engine get warm, but not really hot. It would then stall when I slowed down (luckily I don't recall getting stranded in an intersection) and not restart until it cooled down.

Oddly, if I avoided town, but kept the revs up until it was fully hot, it would keep going. Anyway, it soon got worse, and would miss badly when started, so I had to solve it. A timing light proved that I had weak/intermittent spark. A man in Qld who sells Peugeot parts (can't think of his name) sourced me a 2nd hand cap & rotor, but it didn't last long, and the one on my spare car was also faulty. There's no indication that water was getting on the cap in my car, I couldn't see a spark at night, and there were no visible tracks inside or out, but replacing it solved the problem.

I found that the distributor (& therefore cap & rotor) were also used by BMWs of that era - finished up getting a couple of them cheaply from a US site! The trick was that there are two closely related part numbers - the one used by PSA is harder to find, but the only difference is that it has a protective cover, which can be removed. The version used by BMW doesn't have the cover, but is otherwise identical. I transferred the cover from one of the old ones, just in case it has a purpose...

Re. the aircon - should mention that fairly early in my ownership my a/c compressor failed. No trouble finding the exact Sanden unit with the right pulley and electrical plugs etc. from an aircon supplier - one third the Peugeot price. Despite that, mine gradually loses gas, but shows no sign of leaks when vacuumed down - have come to the conclusion that it is the filler valves leaking. Tried all local workshops that service A/C, but nothing they stock will fit. Next time it needs regassing I will try and get the right valves first.

Having several cars, I decided to follow Double Chevrons advice, and bought a set of gauges (with hoses) and a bottle of HyChill gas. I did this last year after (again) paying to have the 605 regassed, and watching the guy add the weight of gas specified on his generic table (not a PSA site), only to find that it only barely worked - adequate in mild weather, and downright useless in hot weather. My new set of gauges showed that the pressure was low. I don't have a vacuum pump, so just added HyChill until the pressures looked better. Lo and behold - the aircon started working beautifully - possibly the best it's worked in the 10 years I've owned it!

Re. the performance issue - when I got my 605, all indications were that the engine was running beautifully, but power was disappointing, and it wouldn't kick down automatically. Eventually I twigged that there was way too much slack in the throttle cable, and so both problems were solved. (Sadly, the fuel economy hasn't been as good since). The twist came when I was talking to one of the Goodwins (former Peugeot dealers in Cessnock - they sold and serviced several 605s), and mentioned this issue. He told me that they were all delivered from France like that, with the throttle cable set very loose. One of the pre-delivery service steps was supposed to be to adjust this correctly, but apparently that wasn't done in Tasmania (only two 605s were sold new in Tasmania) - after 14 years and c. 75,000 km, mine was still set up the way it came from the factory!

Cheers

Alec

 

[Armidillo]

...

My advice to your friend would be to assume (unless he has receipts to prove otherwise) that his 'new' 25 year old 605 is overdue for a thorough service. The good news is that there is no timing belt! However he should at least check, and/or change:

* Engine oil and filter
* Air & fuel filters
* Spark plugs and plug leads
* Coolant
* Ancillary belts (I think there are 3). Power steering belt is particularly prone to squealing
* Auto transmission fluid (this may need repeating several times at short intervals) - make sure filter (strainer) is cleaned
* Power steering fluid (just as important as the others)
* Brake rotors and pads (don't forget it has drum rear brakes for the hand brake - inside the rear disk rotor for the foot brake)
* Brake fluid
* Radiator cooling fans - both should come on at low speed at about 90C, and when air conditioning is operating

** Others please add things I have forgotten

...

Updates...

* Cabin pollen filter! Guaranteed to be blocked!

I should have added that I always use Purflux oil filters - David Cavanagh & EAI can supply...

Also I have been terribly old fashioned and only used Dexron II for auto trans and power steering. There have been many passionate discussions about this over the years, and there may be other fluids that would be satisfactory, but I prefer not to experiment so long as I can still find Dex II. I bought a 20 litre drum from the local Mobil depot - useful stuff to have on hand, as I can also use it as hydraulic fluid in my Citroens in an emergency!

Cheers

Alec

 

[505604]

My advice to your friend would be to assume (unless he has receipts to prove otherwise) that his 'new' 25 year old 605 is overdue for a thorough service. The good news is that there is no timing belt! However he should at least check, and/or change:
…

* Coolant

He does have receipts for a coolant flush and change. And we think that we now know why. It’s using about a litre of coolant every 1000 kilometres. The coolant is testing positive to exhaust gas.

One of the local, expensive, mechanics has added a ‘bottle of something which is good for sealing small head gasket leaks’. I don’t know what brand or anything else about it. But James isn’t exactly impressed with the seller who probably knew about the head gasket issue and had the coolant changed in order to cover up the problem.

(guess how I know this)!

You didn’t tell me if my guess was correct!

I have to say that when I first got my 605, it didn't seem all that special. It's the kind of car that you appreciate more the longer you own it, and the longer the trip.

I think that this is true of Peugeots in general. In 1983 or 84, when I met my first wife, I had a 1970 model 1.8 litre 504. Her comment was, ‘What have you got something like that for?’. My reply was, ‘Wait and see.’ We were about to drive from inner Sydney to Canberra. When we had passed Campbelltown, she was still asking why. Once we had passed the Picton area, she had changed her tune. All she said was, ‘Now I understand.’ I don’t think that I’ll ever forget that change of mind.

 

[Dijon16]

Fascinated to see this thread re-surface now. The 605 celebrates its 30th anniversary in about 2 weeks, having been released at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September 1989.

With high hopes, they needed to sell 100,000 units a year to break even. In the end, they moved little more than 250,000 in 10 years. The litany of gremlins, mostly electrical, killed an otherwise quite good car from its release. The SV24, which did not come here, was Peugeot's most advanced road car ever, its fastest and most powerful, at the time.

By 1995 the mid-life upgrade had fixed most if not all the wobblies, but the damage was done. Shame really, as when you find out what went in to making it, it deserved better.

 

[Dijon16]

Fascinated to see this thread re-surface now. The 605 celebrates its 30th anniversary in about 2 weeks, having been released at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September 1989.

With high hopes, they needed to sell 100,000 units a year to break even. In the end, they moved little more than 250,000 in 10 years. The litany of gremlins, mostly electrical, killed an otherwise quite good car from its release. The SV24, which did not come here, was Peugeot's most advanced road car ever, its fastest and most powerful, at the time.

By 1995 the mid-life upgrade had fixed most if not all the wobblies, but the damage was done. Shame really, as when you find out what went in to making it, it deserved better.

 

[Armidillo]

He does have receipts for a coolant flush and change. And we think that we now know why. It’s using about a litre of coolant every 1000 kilometres. The coolant is testing positive to exhaust gas.

One of the local, expensive, mechanics has added a ‘bottle of something which is good for sealing small head gasket leaks’. I don’t know what brand or anything else about it. But James isn’t exactly impressed with the seller who probably knew about the head gasket issue and had the coolant changed in order to cover up the problem.

That is a very disappointing story. Has he done a compression test? Might help to determine which head (hopefully not both). I hope the Chemiweld or whatever does the trick - without blocking the radiator or heater core!

When I got mine in 2009, the assessments were very gloomy - PRVs blow head gaskets, especially if left unused for a prolonged period, etc. etc.. After 10 years / 120,000 km I have been starting to hope "they" were wrong. However there would be several XM owners on this forum who have had the pleasure of replacing headgaskets on PRV engines, so your friend is in good company.

You didn’t tell me if my guess was correct!

Re. the second hand dizzie cap, all I meant was that I had a second-hand replacement dizzie cap fail quickly - fortunately it was misfiring from cold, so less chance of getting stuck somewhere.

Cheers

Alec

 

[Armidillo]

Fascinated to see this thread re-surface now. The 605 celebrates its 30th anniversary in about 2 weeks, having been released at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September 1989.

With high hopes, they needed to sell 100,000 units a year to break even. In the end, they moved little more than 250,000 in 10 years. The litany of gremlins, mostly electrical, killed an otherwise quite good car from its release. The SV24, which did not come here, was Peugeot's most advanced road car ever, its fastest and most powerful, at the time.

By 1995 the mid-life upgrade had fixed most if not all the wobblies, but the damage was done. Shame really, as when you find out what went in to making it, it deserved better.

I wish I had a beautiful restored 605 to show off for the 30th anniversary, but that is a plan for some future time! I agree it deserved better - perhaps if they had gone on sale in Australia for a lower price then more might have sold, which would have given more people a chance to appreciate them. Also a shame that the final version with the ES9J4 engine didn't make it out here.

I'm glad mine is a Series II, although no doubt the Series I electrical problems were worse in damp/salty Europe & the UK. In fact my 605 has had very few electrical problems - it doesn't blow light globes (or fuses), and things like electric windows and central locking just work. Wish I could say the same for the 406!

I am surprised that so few were made - I had it in my head that more 605s were sold than XMs. Wikipedia claims about 334,000 XMs were sold, but doesn't give a number for 605s.

Cheers

Alec

 

[Mike Tippett]

The 605 was to be Peugeot's flagship in North America come 1992. Some prototypes were certified to US standards but the "Operation 605 Evolution" recall was happening just before the decision point and Peugeot pulled out of North America. Had it been introduced here and been a good car right off the bat, they might have been able to sell 20,000 a year over here. Maybe more. But they realised that they had a dud on their hands with the S1 car and with US consumer law being among the toughest in the world, the liability exposure would have been too great.

 

[505604]

I think that all known drivable 605s in Australia should be shown somewhere for the anniversary. For the true enthusiast, the condition of the car won’t be paramount.

And the anniversary showing doesn’t have to be on the exact date, in my opinion.

I’m sure that others would enjoy seeing a collection of these rare, fine, frogs.

 

[Ikenna351]

Lol! I wouldn't mind another 605 if I find a clean series II with ES9J4 engine. I personally prefer ZPJ4, but ES9J4 will be easier to maintain for me based on availability of parts here in Abuja. 605 is really a great car.

 

[505604]

Who knew?!?

In the past, apparently Top Gear tried to be serious motoring journalism. Judging from this, it doesn’t seem to have been terribly successful in its quest. Still, it’s worth watching, I think.