1964 ID19 2 speed wiper motor (Heidelberg ID)

[Leconte]

Hi all,

Just working on electrics in my 1964 Heidelberg second nose ID19. It has the 2 speed wiper motor. My dash wiring is not even fit for a dog's breakfast and so I am working from first principles to sort things out. When I got the car there was no Citroen wiper switch, most of the switches were either absent or like the clock, just not connected (not that it works anyway). Some sample pictures show what it was like, almost all the black rubber tube insulation either failed or missing, many bare connectors. Many things on the car including all the rear harness (rear lights, internior light etc) simply didn't work. Hence taking the dash off and going back to basics.




I have a question on the wiper motor, even though the series of four posts about the same sort of motor on Sven's amazing Blue Danube Safari work (starting at post Blue Danube Wiper motor posts ) has been very helpful (so thanks Sven, Buttercup Bob and Budge). On my car's 2 speed wiper motor, there is a small thin wire with white insulation that has come adrift, I believe from the leftmost / topmost power terminal - see photo. Does anyone know what this wire does (is it something to do with the "home position" feature)? I assume I have to re-solder it onto the contact , can anyone confirm that? It seems obvious but it's good to be sure!



Also one thing I found when tracing the wiring on the dash / fuse side, the "always on" power feed for the wipers (the black connector to the wiper motor that doesn't pass through the dash switch) mentioned by Bob in his post about the 2 speed wiper motor connections, is wired behind the dash to the "Accessory" point in the middle of the dash (itself a nice feature I just discovered) - this is clearly the original wiring from Heidelberg. Took me a little while to twig where the feed was coming from, so I have labelled it for posterity.



Also by the way, and thanks again to Sven's thread and Hotrodelectric this time, none of the English wiring diagrams in the 56-61 and 62-65 manuals match what is clearly the original loom wiring on this Heidelberg car. However, the french DR472 manuals on BK23.Free.FR that Bob's posts pointed me to are the closest by quite a way so finding them for the first time has been very valuable. It seems the Heidelberg loom was mostly based the French manual's detail - with the addition at least of the "Chauffage -5 degrees" extra loom items - BUT - while Heidelberg clearly stuck to "standard" or close enough for critical items like ignition and lights, they deviated quite a lot for other wiring and accessories (which wires use certain fuses and even which fuses are in use). As an example, none of the manuals show any use of Fuse 6 (leftmost) but the original loom on this car clearly does. Has anyone ever produced an "as-built" wiring diagram for the second-nose Heidelberg cars? I would love to see one. See below (ignore the bodgy blue wire, that is a later hack). The mauve connector / green wires on the lefthand fuse (which Fuse 6, Fuse 1 is the rightmost one) are not even supposed to be there! I'd be interested if other Heidelberg second nose cars are wired the same.


Thanks for your interest and any help on the wiper motor wiring is appreciated.

Cheers Leconte

 

[bleudanube]

Hi all,

Just working on electrics in my 1964 Heidelberg second nose ID19. It has the 2 speed wiper motor. My dash wiring is not even fit for a dog's breakfast and so I am working from first principles to sort things out. When I got the car there was no Citroen wiper switch, most of the switches were either absent or like the clock, just not connected (not that it works anyway). Some sample pictures show what it was like, almost all the black rubber tube insulation either failed or missing, many bare connectors. Many things on the car including all the rear harness (rear lights, internior light etc) simply didn't work. Hence taking the dash off and going back to basics.

View attachment 138649View attachment 138650View attachment 138651View attachment 138652


I have a question on the wiper motor, even though the series of four posts about the same sort of motor on Sven's amazing Blue Danube Safari work (starting at post Blue Danube Wiper motor posts ) has been very helpful (so thanks Sven, Buttercup Bob and Budge). On my car's 2 speed wiper motor, there is a small thin wire with white insulation that has come adrift, I believe from the leftmost / topmost power terminal - see photo. Does anyone know what this wire does (is it something to do with the "home position" feature)? I assume I have to re-solder it onto the contact , can anyone confirm that? It seems obvious but it's good to be sure!

View attachment 138653 View attachment 138654

Also one thing I found when tracing the wiring on the dash / fuse side, the "always on" power feed for the wipers (the black connector to the wiper motor that doesn't pass through the dash switch) mentioned by Bob in his post about the 2 speed wiper motor connections, is wired behind the dash to the "Accessory" point in the middle of the dash (itself a nice feature I just discovered) - this is clearly the original wiring from Heidelberg. Took me a little while to twig where the feed was coming from, so I have labelled it for posterity.

View attachment 138655

Also by the way, and thanks again to Sven's thread and Hotrodelectric this time, none of the English wiring diagrams in the 56-61 and 62-65 manuals match what is clearly the original loom wiring on this Heidelberg car. However, the french DR472 manuals on BK23.Free.FR that Bob's posts pointed me to are the closest by quite a way so finding them for the first time has been very valuable. It seems the Heidelberg loom was mostly based the French manual's detail - with the addition at least of the "Chauffage -5 degrees" extra loom items - BUT - while Heidelberg clearly stuck to "standard" or close enough for critical items like ignition and lights, they deviated quite a lot for other wiring and accessories (which wires use certain fuses and even which fuses are in use). As an example, none of the manuals show any use of Fuse 6 (leftmost) but the original loom on this car clearly does. Has anyone ever produced an "as-built" wiring diagram for the second-nose Heidelberg cars? I would love to see one. See below (ignore the bodgy blue wire, that is a later hack). The mauve connector / green wires on the lefthand fuse (which Fuse

Leconte,

Yes, the white wire belongs to the top/left contact. Found a ‘before’ photo of mine - the insulation was crumbled on a few of the wires ans had to be replaced.

 

[Leconte]

Thanks Sven. I just found another confirmation in this other thread DS Windscreen Wiper thread that I somehow missed in my searches for info. It's actually the Blue connector terminal at the motor end not the black one as I described. Does anyone wnow what the wire does though, it looks too lightweight to be the power for the motor? I always imagined that wiper motors pull quite a few amps.

 

[faulksy]

From memory, the wiper motor only pulls a couple of amps and solid core wire has some advantages over stranded wire in that regard.

Black is permanent power for parking
blue is slow speed
red and blue together is high speed

The switch connects the blue and black together to park the wipers

 

[Buttercup]

You should never use solid core wire in anything that moves.
It's ok in houses.
Motor vehicles, trailers including caravans, boats, aircraft, even lawn mowers, must use fine multistrand cables to provide flexibility within the elastic limit of the copper, and therefore resistance to fatigue.
Solid core has very poor resistance to fatigue, and fails quickly adjacent to connecting terminals.
A wiper motor might draw 8 or 10amps.
Ie the motor would be rated for maybe 80 to 100w.
Modern ones are more powerful because windscreens are bigger and wiper arms much longer.

 

[faulksy]

I’ve yet to see a DS wiper motor that has stranded wire between the solder tabs and the motor brushes. I suppose they figured the wiring wasn’t subject to enough vibration and movement to be a problem. You are right though, stranded wire is the way to go for automotive applications.

I measured the power draw in order to see how big of a diode was required to install a LHD 3rd dash wiper switch instead of a RHD one. It was only about 5A

 

[Leconte]

Hi again froggers,

OK I have the wiper motor (Bosch) off and resoldered the tiny wire on. It would be under 1/2 mm gauge. Photos below.
I have another question - has anyone ever greased the roller joint elbows on these post-62 wiper mechanisms? They don’t have circlips for disassembly that the earlier ones had. I have sprayed Inox on them so they are moving nicely but that’s not a permanent greasing answer. I have a feeling these roller ball elbow joints and their runners are a press-fit into the mechanism arms and not serviceable. Can anyone confirm before I put the dash back on?

Wiper mechanism roller ball elbow joint example:




Soldering result:

Put some heat shrink over the white re-soldered wire.

Thanks Leconte

 

[Buttercup]

Give them a spray of motorcycle chain lube, it gets in, then the light carrier component evaporates leaving the heavier lube fraction (grease) deep in the ball joint.

 

[Budge]

This is particularly aimed at Bleudanube/ Sven.

Wiper motor problems keep cropping up. Having dismantled and rebuilt my two speed 60s motor, I've just written up a blog post explaining the mysteries of how it works. For example the current draw is reduced to give the second higher speed - the switch de-activates one of the circuits.

A Quick Word About.....The Mysteries Of The DS Wiper Motor.

A blog about restoring a Citroen DS21 classic car

ds-restoration.blogspot.com

In post 2 above you include a 'before' picture of your three solder point, two speed wiper motor. I'm interested in see some more photos of your wired-up motor if possible. The reason being that my motors (plural) only have TWO wires coming off the internal windings to the solder points, whereas yours clearly has THREE. So I'm very curious where they go.

In your other 'New Challenge' thread (at post 344 on page 18 in March 2021) there is an 'after' photo, but I still can't see where all the three wires coming from the body fix to the solder points. I'm keen to understand where those wires from the inside, are fixed outside. Do you have any clearer photos of where all the wires go please - or can you perhaps have a look and report back?? It's the wires emerging from the body I'm interested in.

 

[bleudanube]

Hi Budge,

Weeeellll, I may not be able to help either as the new wiring loom only has two wires, so I only connected up for single speed and left one wiper wire blank… it never rains in Oz and the wipers are rubbish at the best of times… so one speed of invisibility is just fine

 

[Budge]

Thank you. Of the (three?) wires that were inside the body and coming out, the red sleeved wire looks to be going to the middle solder point, but I can't see where the other two go. Are you able to tell me which solder points they go to please?

 

[bleudanube]

Here a few more photos… I am not near the car at the moment, so I can’t look which one goes where.

 

[Budge]

Thanks Sven - that new 'after' photo may just do it: one wire from inside goes to the top solder point, and the middle solder point has the two (the red wire and other black wire) from inside going to it.

I know you had some battery draining problems that were traced back to the motor but if the solution didn't mean re-soldering anything differently, I'll have a go at a circuit diagram based on the wiring in the photo here.

In the meantime, here is how my two speed motor (with just two wires) is wired up.