URGENT: Final drive needed 25x68 from 2L HDI AL4

[dimistyle]

OK on the scrounge of a dead AL4 with the working final drive, in the Brisbane area. So I can swap the incorrect petrol version I have.

If you have a 20TP43 or 20TP94 sitting around in a non-functioning state the final drive may be OK as I doubt mine will be OK hence I'm swapping out the whole box.

My replacement box is from a Petrol 20TP93 so the final drive is incorrect so would appreciate anyone wrecking or has a problem box that willing to split the box for parts.

Just PM me with what you have so I can collect if local.

If you have one but further afield PM me so freight can be arranged,

Ah the joys of F#$ING UP

 

[jaahn]

Hi dimi,
Perhaps you could widen your search to include Peugeots also. They have the same engines and gearboxes(and other stuff) as the equivalent Citroens. There may be more Pugs than Citroens around. Particularly the mid size models.
Jaahn

 

[N5GTi6]

21 X 73 in our C3 - maybe from a 307 ?

Cheers

Justin

 

[shanadoo]

You're going to remove the old box to fit a replacement right?, so why not use the old C/P. I doubt you'll be completing the box swap in 4 hours anyway as you claim, so providing the bearings mate up [used on used] and end float works out ok, just add hour and a half to the job.

 

[dimistyle]

Tony I think I have found a better solution, due to the unknown problem with my box I have no confidence my Final Drive is any good. 4 hrs 2 men all going well of course. Currently have ever hose and cable disconnected but hydraulics were left low so need to start her back up to raise as the trolley jack is stuck underneath . Haven't allowed for lexia time and tidying up engine bay cables


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[Ken W]

Dimi,

It should pump up if you just unlock the doors as the pump in these is electric. Man you are going to know a lot about these gearboxes once you are finished. Might take a couple of goes though.

Cheers Ken

 

[dimistyle]

Yes AM6 next time. I was supposed to be buying a Pug 307 SW but......anyway have C5 for now. Will try the door unlock tonight as have a replacement battery now.

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[JohnW]

Dimi, It should pump up if you just unlock the doors as the pump in these is electric. Man you are going to know a lot about these gearboxes once you are finished. Might take a couple of goes though. Cheers Ken

If he gets it all working, he sure will be. Good luck Dimi. A few of us out here are hoping our good wishes will help somehow!!

 

[David S]

Looking at where the output speed sensor bolts up, it may be triggered by the pinion/output shaft rather than the crownwheel assembly. I don't know if that gets you out of trouble though. It may work with the wrong C&P, but it would likely still become confused by the unexpected vehicle speed / axle rotation. Data shows at 1,000 rpm in 4th the DW10 HDi is meant to be at 46.5km/h, while the EW10 is 39.7km/h, due to the C&P difference.

To change the C&P, the manual shows you need to remove the front F3 piston, band and drum to get at the pinion / output shaft assembly. There is obviously a set of 5 shims you buy to adjust the pinion height relative to the case so you can account for machining variations. That's possibly more work than you were thinking of. It also needs a torque wrench to tension the band's setscrew, but you'd need that for almost every bolt anyway.

It also looks like there are 9 bolts holding the DW10 valve block in place versus 7 for the EW10 version. It looks a bit different in the drawings, but I've not checked the parts list to see if there is a different valve block listed. Another difference seems to be that the DW10 cooler has 12 fins and the EW10 only 9, presumably because it does less work. The change in numbering from the TP43 to TP94 (and TP42 to TP93) just seems to relate to a small change in the case where the lifting eye was separated from the cable sleeve stop from RPO8827 (mid-2001).

 

[dimistyle]

Thanks Dave S have already noticed several external case differences but these are due to having a TP22 case to add to the confusion. Still shopping around for another TP43 but may open what I have and see what can be changed over.

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[shanadoo]

speed sensor is triggered by the mainshaft end housing, part of the E1 clutch [1st- 3rd]. Any scoring of the internal bushes in the mainshaft and they, or it, must be replaced. There is no tolerance for wear, but loss of oil pressure will result.

Access to the CW/P is after removing the front case, the oil pump complete and the case gasket. The F3 drum and band [1st & 2nd] can then be removed they're a slip fit [the band after removing the external locating bolt] be careful of the nylon thrust at the back of the drum. The band should have an anti rattle spring fitted, if not it's advisable to fit one.

Any scoring at all of the drum outer and/or its inner bearing surface means that it must be disguarded. Do not even think that it might do, it wont.

Pinion and crown wheel carrier endfloat is checked by leaving off the oil pump and case gasket then refitting the case, tensioning the bolts. You can then check endfloat through where the oil pump fits. Adjustment is made by fitting the appropriate size shim underneath the bearing cups. You'll need a special puller, impossible without one.

Always use the 12 plate cooler. Oh and the oil pump must be removed along with the filter. [one bracket bolt]

I wish you luck.

 

[David S]

Do you have the correct manual? There are two you want to get hold of as per a very helpful person here:
AL4 Service & Repair Manual - French Car Forum
The first link is to a 72 page overhaul manual, whereas the second links to the 59 page Xantia-era Citroen 'Presentation' on the gearbox that tells you a lot about it, but not how to pull it apart.
Although neither is C5-specific and there may be evolutionary issues by 2004 not covered, you want both documents.

 

[shanadoo]

By the by I still reckon it would be worth your while opening your old box and at least checking the CW/P. They're pretty much bullet proof in an automatic and the converter goes into stall if a lead foot tries to give it a hiding. Plus the driveline is protected by the traction controls so I wouldn't expect the differential to have suffered any damage. Worth a look?. I still think you'll find the problem elsewhere in the box though and it would be nice to find out and fix it rather than end up with a hotch potch of bits. But strange things happen in this world, so it may work out. Stay Lucky.

 

[David S]

speed sensor is triggered by the mainshaft end housing, part of the E1 clutch [1st- 3rd]. Any scoring of the internal bushes in the mainshaft and they, or it, must be replaced. There is no tolerance for wear, but loss of oil pressure will result.
...

That'd be part of the primary / input line, so that would be for the input speed sensor. The output speed sensor must be measuring the secondary shaft that incorporates the pinion. Unless that sensor measures motion parallel to it's axis, it won't be measuring the crownwheel motion.

 

[dimistyle]

Do you have the correct manual? There are two you want to get hold of as per a very helpful person here:
AL4 Service & Repair Manual - French Car Forum
The first link is to a 72 page overhaul manual, whereas the second links to the 59 page Xantia-era Citroen 'Presentation' on the gearbox that tells you a lot about it, but not how to pull it apart.
Although neither is C5-specific and there may be evolutionary issues by 2004 not covered, you want both documents.

Thanks Dave I have both of these already, have a couple of auto experts on the case to cover the couple of options of repair existing or swap C/P over to petrol worker.

strangely enough have had a couple of others say it impossible as too many differences, cant see many on service manual?

 

[dimistyle]

By the by I still reckon it would be worth your while opening your old box and at least checking the CW/P. They're pretty much bullet proof in an automatic and the converter goes into stall if a lead foot tries to give it a hiding. Plus the driveline is protected by the traction controls so I wouldn't expect the differential to have suffered any damage. Worth a look?. I still think you'll find the problem elsewhere in the box though and it would be nice to find out and fix it rather than end up with a hotch potch of bits. But strange things happen in this world, so it may work out. Stay Lucky.

Thanks Tony for all the advice, I will definitely be opening the old diesel box, there may be something obvious, like oil pump or scoring, piston split/leaking etc, it now wont be a weekend job, but must make a start

 

[shanadoo]

That'd be part of the primary / input line, so that would be for the input speed sensor. The output speed sensor must be measuring the secondary shaft that incorporates the pinion. Unless that sensor measures motion parallel to it's axis, it won't be measuring the crownwheel motion.

OK only one shaft & one 2 wire sensor. part listed as input/output sensor. I should have said "triggered by the mainshaft part of the E1 clutch". And there's no need to measure CW rotation because the speedometer is controlled by the BSI using the wheel ABS sensors does it not. Or something like that.
So in gear pos N-P or R the E1 clutch is engaged, the mainshaft is still turning, and the sensor is still feeding info into the gearbox ECU.
So we can assume the speedo will probably still read correctly but with a lower CW/P ratio the engine revs will be far too high for the indicated speed so therein lies a gearshift problem or maybe not. A lower ratio would certainly help the AL4 on hill starts.
Only the Shadow and the BSI knows.

 

[dimistyle]

Tony, I believe I have found someone in the know, who has rebuild a few of these and repaired an AL4 in the same situation as mine i.e. wont move in any gear. Something to try since I have a spare box. Take off end cover from good petrol box and swap complete with possibly worn piston on my end cover. If this does not get it moving, take both boxes to Geebung and they will get my diesel working from parts from the petrol, he doesn't think we will have a problem sorting. BTW they said yes I can swap the CW out of the petrol and put the diesel one in, as no internal differences. He also mentioned as the external cases are the same there have been a few rebuilds with incorrect cases so I'm not the only one!
I was researching the use of the speedo accuracy devices the guys with 4WDs install when they change wheel sizes, I could install between the input/output sensor and the ECU to trick it into thinking speed/RPM was ok, but may end up with other ECU issues so best not attempt this.

Still trying to track down the Automatic repairer that was used on another Froggies car but no luck so far, Ken do you have Peter's contact details?

Feeling some luck heading this way.....not Lotto luck thou .

 

[jaahn]

Hi
As far as speed sensing goes, most new cars as I understand use the wheel sensors that the ABS brakes use, to compute a car speed. I guess the BSI does that sort of thing as Tony said. Not sure about the C5 though. I will ask the Shadow
I have used one of those speedo correctors on my motorhome and could not see it giving any problems on the C5. The only difficulty is finding the correct wire to intercept.
Jaahn

 

[shanadoo]

Yes cw/P is the same, but you'll be using the used bearing cones from one unit and cups from another. Don't expect them to run quiet, but checking end float should be considered mandatory. No float without case gasket, but shafts must be able to be spun easily [if they're too tight it will severely overheat]. Remember these shafts will increase in length with heat, so not too tight.
If all good then slacken bolts and recheck float. If there is any then you'll have to shim one of the cups on that particular shaft to the thickness of the gasket.

The speedo will still be ok, nothing to do with the gearbox, but the computer measures a lot of stuff before allowing a gearchange, like engine revs, throttle and gear lever position, torque output, vehicle speed and whether you're wearing false teeth.
So you may or may not have a problem. I think that changing wheel size will throw the speedo out of whack so you'll have to reconfigure through Lexia.

The gearbox speed sensor is a Hall Effect unit using 2 channels and gets 8 impulses per revolution. The wires are Orange and White.
I can't remember which wire is which but one is 12v supply and the other is control or signal, but I think they finish at pin No 47 & 48 on the ECU. Pin 48 being the 12v. Both wires run through the large Molex type connector on top of the box.

Stay Lucky.