Water Pump Rebuilding

addo

addo

Contented Peugeot Driver
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Once we step away from the "classics" where parts are readily serviced at sane prices, there are such difficulties.

I have a leaky PRV water pump* (two, actually - one is a spare). Replacements are thin on the ground and upwards of $350. Many people list phantom stock; been there, bought that, got the refund and apology...

What I want to know is what's involved in a water pump rebuild when the shaft sealing ability is rooted? These pumps are a pretty old school type, bolt on and driven by a multirib belt - not the timing kit.

Input is appreciated; I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness. :wink2:



* Another casualty of the blocked cat problems. Overheating has blown out the seal - been like that since purchase and loses about 5ml/km.
 
Best thing to do is press it apart and inspect! Seals, bearings and your labour will be far cheaper.
 
Can you get that sort of stuff, though?

I've read about ceramic seals, carbon seals, yada yada but then can't find such stuff listed by sizing in the manner you can source (for example) bronze bushes.
 
Hi Addo

I have never pulled one apart, but if you have a completely stuffed water pump that you can sacrifice as a guinea pig you don't really have much to loose.

Press it apart and see if the bearings and seals are common off the shelf parts. You may be able to rebuild for about $50 plus your time.
 
What do you mean when saying shaft sealing ability is lost? Is the shaft grooved?

I had shafts metal sprayed and reground in the past. Rebuilding parts (seals, bearings, impellers) were available in the past for water pumps on R12s for instance, but that was eons ago, in a place where little was thrown away.
 
Remember some Landrover nostalgia a while ago? These had carbon seals fitted on the shaft between the bearing and impeller. There was a locating screw in the side of the bearing to remove. We used to drift out the impeller, bearing and seal as one out of the casting; then cut and remove the seal; then drift the bearing off the shaft. Usually only the seal was crook. From memory, the pulley hub, and the impeller were press fits and must be very tight but these were rarely bad if you hadn't rusted them. You'd curse if you got the bearing locating hole out of alignment and had to do it again, but it was a simple job.
 
addo said:
.... I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness. :wink2:
Click to expand...

FU2 - I've only delved into XN water pumps and after pulling a few apart life is too short to stuff around with them.

So now I buy a quality replacement bare pump ( :eek:) like a Valeo or QH swap the parts to it.

If were to pull an expensive pump apart I'd look at modifying (you probably don't know the meaning :blackeye:) it to use off the shelf seals and bearings because sure as hell the OEM parts will be like rocking horse poo to obtain.
 
Done plenty of Morris Minor waterpump rebuilds and used to have additional seals on hand, was easy and if done properly you have confidence in your own work - kinda miss those days when you could buy components inexpensively. One of my jobs on the back-burner is to replace a Commodore waterpump and it will be the whole pump and housing as the last one corroded itself away while sitting unused for a few years, I guess it was a cheap chinese replacement rather than an OEM part.

I guess if the old waterpump main components and housing are o.k. and you can press the parts out of it, then it would not be hard to make up a sealing mechanism - how long it would last though might be another thing, I just looked to see if I had a SASIC water pump catalogue (I don't) they usually have a comprehensive illustration of the after market parts available for most European cars.

You could try this Indian company they seem to make/sell seals for everything.

Water pump seal Manufacturer,Supplier of booster pump seal,Mechanical seal

Ken
 
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It's now been dropped from further production (this is recent-ish). €290 odd plus freight is the cheapest they might be found...

I've chucked in some pictures; Shane will recognise the pump as similar to the 2.5 diesel XM. The pulley is clearly painted separately to the pump/shaft which leads me to think it's pressed on cold, late in the game.

No hangups about modifying the pump if it gives better/equal sealing with a boost to reliability or lower net cost. Thing is, I have no idea whatsoever about the internals of the shaft and seal arrangement.
 

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Get or borrow a good quality puller, the pulley seems robust enough to apply reasonable pressure to the centre shaft, then gently warm the centre boss with a gas flame and it should pop off easily, then you need to access the seal area, hopefully it won't be too corroded, mostly you will destroy the seal getting it off the shaft. next thing is to find a similar seal. Even if you end up with junk, you learn something IMHO!
 
Addo, I agree with Kenfuego. In the good old days we fixed these seals on a regular basis. If you had a Landie you weren't even expected to have a workshop, just hand tools (they used a cast iron housing). As long as the case and impeller haven't corroded away it's probably only the seal. The shaft usually only corrodes if water gets into the bearing for too long. There is usually a drain to tell the tale.

If you can't get a seal or perhaps a bearing here or at the usual European sources, change your search to look up India. All sorts of service items for old engines now come from there and the quality of the Rover stuff was OK.
 
mistareno said:
What about gutting the old pump, welding it up and using an Electric Pump?
Click to expand...

You dont even need to weld up the old pump , just leave it off and fit a Ford hose ( I have the number if you need it ) it fits perfectly onto the Y junction in the vally and onto the electic water pump mounted on the radiator lower outlet spigot.
Remove the thermostat from the top hose , conect the wires to the battery , fill with coolant and drive away.
I mounted the ECU on the dash to make use of its temp gauge and it allows you to monitor the system to know when the pump is running , power supply etc.
 
addo said:
It's now been dropped from further production (this is recent-ish). €290 odd plus freight is the cheapest they might be found...

I've chucked in some pictures; Shane will recognise the pump as similar to the 2.5 diesel XM. The pulley is clearly painted separately to the pump/shaft which leads me to think it's pressed on cold, late in the game.

No hangups about modifying the pump if it gives better/equal sealing with a boost to reliability or lower net cost. Thing is, I have no idea whatsoever about the internals of the shaft and seal arrangement.
Click to expand...

I would suggest the shaft is pressed into the impeller as first stage assembly. Then the impeller plus shaft assembly is pressed into the front pulley.

My reason for believing this is the solid step on the pulley which is a strong and secure position to support the pulley whilst pressing.

I don't think either the pulley nor the impeller look strong enough to support the the "fingers" of a puller.

I would start an extended soak oi kero/diesel/ WD 40 whatever.
Make a steel plate (15mm thick at least) to be snug fit overt the step in the pulley, then heat the impeller and try press the shaft out of the impeller and through the puller . You can press out the front pulley later (same direction/jig?) and press the impeller back on afterwards.

I know for sure, before reassembly, the shaft should be made an easy on the pulley and pinned on with a pair of concentric roll pins. Ream a a taper pin (memories of German film projectors) if you are a masochist, but do mark the small end with a file mark. :wink2:

A pinned pulley is easier to reassemble and service.

Edit: I'd also make pressing mandrel with a small dowel on the end which indexes into a small hole on the impeller end of the shaft. It's easy to spin the pulley in the lathe(stop the pump spinning with a clamp) and make small counter bored hole. Then the alignment is maintained whilst pressing.

Liquid lanolin is magic when using a press.
 
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pumps and seals

addo said:
Once we step away from the "classics" where parts are readily serviced at sane prices, there are such difficulties.
I have a leaky PRV water pump* (two, actually - one is a spare). Replacements are thin on the ground and upwards of $350. Many people list phantom stock; been there, bought that, got the refund and apology...
What I want to know is what's involved in a water pump rebuild when the shaft sealing ability is rooted? These pumps are a pretty old school type, bolt on and driven by a multirib belt - not the timing kit.
Input is appreciated; I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness. :wink2:
* Another casualty of the blocked cat problems. Overheating has blown out the seal - been like that since purchase and loses about 5ml/km.
Click to expand...

Hi addo:)
In the middle ages, of old cars, there was a move to 'cassett' combined bearing and seal assemblies, These are usually of standard sizes of shafts and the OD of the combined bearing/seal assembly. Different lengths of shaft are used. if you can get a longer length then cut the shaft to length.
The bearing/seal assembly is not dissembleable as the balls run in grooves in the shaft and directly in the outer long housing. They explode if you try and press them apart.:nownow: However they are fitted to the housing by pressing and the impeller and pulley are pressed on!

try looking for SKF Water pump bearings; I am currently out of good internet contact.
:cheers:jaahn.
 
That is excellent information. I quickly surfed for some imagery and indeed it does look like the small amount of what I can eyeball behind the impeller.
 
I would be tempted to sacrifice the pulley stepped part by grinding it away gently (dremel on two diagonally opposing sides) until the pulley comes off without effort, take it out and investigate what to do with the seal/bearing. After repair, I would machine a flat face on the pulley (looks like a flat face where the step ends), and a snug fit boss pinned to the shaft as Rob explained and bolt that to the pulley boss (flat) face.
 
The pulley is stouter than it looks; a quick belt with the oxy and squirt with Rost-Off or Inox should aid its removal, or at least damage the dry frictional bond between pulley and shaft. Taking Jaahn's comments into account, another method of dissembly might be to bore out the shaft from inside the pulley and impeller until there was only a quarter mil wall left.

Squinting into the impeller side of the bearing on my spare pump, I can see a dry/cracked rubber seal portion of the bearing face. This could well be the sort of way failure starts, once oil in the coolant has destroyed the rubber.
 
Not until you posted it last night - they also list 1201.94 which is the Pug part number - but with no crossover to their own coding.
 
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