nightmare continues
- Thread starter bishka
- Start date
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- Aug 2, 2000
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- 11,675
When the EGR valve on the 407 I drove was faulty, it would start and run but only just, misfiring with little power. Made it to Nambour and Cullens for a replacement.
This type thing is always a gamble, dangerous & a message for others.
Be careful naming & shaming anyone on any forum it can come back to bite the poster & others.
1. You didn't employ someone to get this thing going like new, who was an expert. These type companies are PM & minor simple repairers not specialists.
2. You gave them a 2nd hand engine & asked them to fit.
3. That they did.
4. Recently I saw on Carline Shop's wall a poster with to the affect- anything s/h you bring to have fitted - engines, trannys etc. we will do but no responsibily if it doesn't work as expected.
Problem seems turbo related as mentioned by David with diagram a couple of posts ago.
I am not a specialist but a good mechanic. A specialist is what is needed.
Be careful naming & shaming anyone on any forum it can come back to bite the poster & others.
1. You didn't employ someone to get this thing going like new, who was an expert. These type companies are PM & minor simple repairers not specialists.
2. You gave them a 2nd hand engine & asked them to fit.
3. That they did.
4. Recently I saw on Carline Shop's wall a poster with to the affect- anything s/h you bring to have fitted - engines, trannys etc. we will do but no responsibily if it doesn't work as expected.
Problem seems turbo related as mentioned by David with diagram a couple of posts ago.
I am not a specialist but a good mechanic. A specialist is what is needed.
Note that as part of the recent changes to the forum terms and rules, there is a no name and shame policy in place. In this case, the mechanic initially mentioned has been obscured for this reason.
As others and you have said, is it making any boost, and if so how much?
Does it have the correct fuel rail pressure?
If your mechanic can't answer those two basic questions you need another mechanic.
The odds of all 4 of the injectors and the turbo going out at the same time are about the same as winning Powerball.
Wouldn't your mechanic have given the turbo's impeller a spin with his fingers and checked the endfloat while he was fitting it?
Then he wants to replace these items to see if the "new" engine is any good????
Surely he would compression test the engine while the old injectors were out before spending your hard earned on a new set?
Did the engine supplier provide compression readings or write them on the cam cover?
Is it still drivable or has he half pulled it apart?
I know you said the engine light was on but that's usually a warning the emissions are out rather than a sign of imminent engine failure.
I would see if it has boost, if no, problem solve that first.
Inlet tract, air filter etc, boost piping, intercooler etc, EGR valve, wastegate.
Dimistyle mentioned the throttle controller, is It getting full throttle? You can't make boost if the turbo's not getting enough air.
David gave a good overview of the vacuum control system for the turbo.
Exhaust system restriction?
There's an awful lot that will stop you making boost other than a faulty turbo?
From what you've said it doesn't sound like your current mechanic is the right man for the job.
Does it have the correct fuel rail pressure?
If your mechanic can't answer those two basic questions you need another mechanic.
The odds of all 4 of the injectors and the turbo going out at the same time are about the same as winning Powerball.
Wouldn't your mechanic have given the turbo's impeller a spin with his fingers and checked the endfloat while he was fitting it?
Then he wants to replace these items to see if the "new" engine is any good????
Surely he would compression test the engine while the old injectors were out before spending your hard earned on a new set?
Did the engine supplier provide compression readings or write them on the cam cover?
Is it still drivable or has he half pulled it apart?
I know you said the engine light was on but that's usually a warning the emissions are out rather than a sign of imminent engine failure.
I would see if it has boost, if no, problem solve that first.
Inlet tract, air filter etc, boost piping, intercooler etc, EGR valve, wastegate.
Dimistyle mentioned the throttle controller, is It getting full throttle? You can't make boost if the turbo's not getting enough air.
David gave a good overview of the vacuum control system for the turbo.
Exhaust system restriction?
There's an awful lot that will stop you making boost other than a faulty turbo?
From what you've said it doesn't sound like your current mechanic is the right man for the job.
The OP has a problem, that I understand & sympathise with.
Some is of this problem is of his own making in not seeking out a "recent" Pug experienced tradesman & recommended repairer.
Last week I looked @ a 308 with a BMW/Mini/Prince? engine issue. Lovely clean low km car that could have been bought for about $400 was on Gumtree for a grand or offer.
Guy had engine replaced (milky oil) with used engine that had noise @ startup & extreme lack of power occasionally, especially when needed.
Old engine gone to trash!
I buy, repair to roadworthy fit new timing belts etc. such cars (especially Astras, Jap or Korean) but won't gamble on unknown EU jobs especially VW's.
Old engine still there I may have taken a punt.
Hate to see good cars crushed as happens to too many, but here is another example to learn from, research & perhaps cut losses & walk.
Hard when the wallet is drained & the tap is still running.
JG.
Some is of this problem is of his own making in not seeking out a "recent" Pug experienced tradesman & recommended repairer.
Last week I looked @ a 308 with a BMW/Mini/Prince? engine issue. Lovely clean low km car that could have been bought for about $400 was on Gumtree for a grand or offer.
Guy had engine replaced (milky oil) with used engine that had noise @ startup & extreme lack of power occasionally, especially when needed.
Old engine gone to trash!
I buy, repair to roadworthy fit new timing belts etc. such cars (especially Astras, Jap or Korean) but won't gamble on unknown EU jobs especially VW's.
Old engine still there I may have taken a punt.
Hate to see good cars crushed as happens to too many, but here is another example to learn from, research & perhaps cut losses & walk.
Hard when the wallet is drained & the tap is still running.
JG.
I had a PT Cruiser for work, yes yes I know, but it had dark tinted windows.
However it was a nice clean car, low KMs with cold AC and all the fruit.
It suddenly belched plumes of smoke from under the the bonnet at 100kph (without any warning). Pulled over and it had blown the head gasket, turned out a plastic heater hose fitting had snapped off at the firewall and subsequently emptied the cooling system.
I couldn't be the bothered working on it (or have the time) and it wasn't worth paying anyone else to do it, so off it went to the wreckers and I bought another cheapie for the daily grind.
It's sad, but once cars get to a certain age, (unless you can do it yourself) any reasonably sized repair doesn't make sound economic sense.
A clutch failure in my daughter in law's out of warranty Dualis came in at a shade over $5K at Nissan to rectify. That was three years ago, if it happened again now it wouldn't be worth doing.
In the OP's defence he was quoted a reasonable $1K for the job but was subsequently charged $3K.
Cars like your PT cruiser (or any other) sent to the wreckers for minor problems are recycled so it's not really a waste.
As for what a car with a problem is worth, the answer may not be that clear cut when you factor in the risk of buying another car with some other hidden problem. I personally prefer a problem I know of and can solve rather than one I don't know and may not be able to do anything about.
As for what a car with a problem is worth, the answer may not be that clear cut when you factor in the risk of buying another car with some other hidden problem. I personally prefer a problem I know of and can solve rather than one I don't know and may not be able to do anything about.
Trouble is, as this thread shows, you never know exactly what rabbit hole you're getting into with repairing low value later model cars.
As with the PT, "it's just a head gasket" then you pull the head off and it's warped beyond surfacing limits, cracked, gone soft etc etc. Then you're up for a head, "oh and the new head's warranty is void if you don't fit new head bolts". While the heads off better do the cambelt, waterpump, tensioner etc, and that engine mount is a real pr#ck to get at (at that end of the engine) so may as well do that as well and before you know it $1500 and a day or two of your life has disappeared (if you do it yourself).
Then you get it running, but now it burns oil and blows smoke, hmm got hotter than I thought.
Been there, done that.
For the 10 years prior to the PT I ran a 1992 Corolla and a 1999 Echo for work. Both purchased with over 200,000KM on them, both were under $2K to buy. Neither had any problems whatsoever and both only left my care because two of my newly licenced daughters wrangled them off me.
I've had my current $3K Mitsubishi for over 12 months now and it hasn't missed a beat.
Even though they are low $ purchases, I still choose my daily drives very carefully, and I always only ever buy a manual transmission.
After 2 years ownership the $2499 PT only died because of a crappy plastic hose fitting failing, an event like that is hard to predict.
Hi.
I like others have been watching this thread and share the disappointment. I also have children and have provided vehicles for them initially, so I have full empathy for the circumstances and motivation. As has been said by other posters, the OP was quoted $1k to fit an engine and we now know the invoice was $3k. We don't know what the justification was for the increase, and it likely irrelevant now anyway. We are all wise in retrospect so am not going to comment on this.
My opinion, is based on the following assumptions:
- The vehicle is in good condition generally.
- Everything was in running condition until the original engine stopped, we don't know the reason why, but assume this was an internal engine problem.
- That the second hand engine was in good condition and running order prior to being fitted. If the donor vehicle was accident damaged this is a reasonable assumption.
- The engine at least starts and idles, and drives but with very low power, so I assume that all of the harness and electrical looms and vacuum tubing is correctly connected, and systems are working. Except to state that the engine does not produce rated output.
- There has been a significant amount of capital invested now, another $500 is small relative to the sunk cost, and also the anticipated expectation of a reliable vehicle for his daughter.
I would identify a mechanic that has a working knowledge of the vehicle and engine, and say something along the following:
- Tell the mechanic the background.
- Say that you are prepared to spend say $500 investigating and diagnosing why the engine is not producing rated power, with no obligation to get the vehicle running correctly. And no obligation to take on the responsibility of the prior work.
- Ask them to provide a report with costs needed to resolve the diagnosed problem.
Then a more informed decision could be made to scrap or proceed with the vehicle.
Sorry about the OPs situation, but hope he can get it resolved.
Cheers.
your situation is a mirrored scenario of a young a/c mechanics mothers 308 diesel engined car about 5years ago. the young guy used to service our buses where I worked,turned out workshop had car for 18months,owner bought another vehicle.her son took car from said workshop(she had paid over $3500) had another workshop(Peugeot specialist)look at it,turns out first workshop had used incorrect grade engine oil(much too heavy apparently) correct oil grade and all was good apparently.sometimes the simplest of things are overlooked….jim
Hehehehe.Trouble is, as this thread shows, you never know exactly what rabbit hole you're getting into with repairing low value later model cars.
As with the PT, "it's just a head gasket" then you pull the head off and it's warped beyond surfacing limits, cracked, gone soft etc etc. Then you're up for a head, "oh and the new head's warranty is void if you don't fit new head bolts". While the heads off better do the cambelt, waterpump, tensioner etc, and that engine mount is a real pr#ck to get at (at that end of the engine) so may as well do that as well and before you know it $1500 and a day or two of your life has disappeared (if you do it yourself).
Then you get it running, but now it burns oil and blows smoke, hmm got hotter than I thought.
Been there, done that.
For the 10 years prior to the PT I ran a 1992 Corolla and a 1999 Echo for work. Both purchased with over 200,000KM on them, both were under $2K to buy. Neither had any problems whatsoever and both only left my care because two of my newly licenced daughters wrangled them off me.
I've had my current $3K Mitsubishi for over 12 months now and it hasn't missed a beat.
Even though they are low $ purchases, I still choose my daily drives very carefully, and I always only ever buy a manual transmission.
After 2 years ownership the $2499 PT only died because of a crappy plastic hose fitting failing, an event like that is hard to predict.
Similar experience here. I too bought a Corolla 2005 (auto-wife requirement) that provided stellar service. Written off by insurance, rear ended, 900 bucks purchase (auction) price (fees included), cost to put back on road including 5 new tyres 3100$ (inclusive also of inspection fees, temporary permit, tax, everything). Included in the cost was upgrading to power windows all round (povo pack it was, manual all round), door trims, the lot, new tailgate and bumper. Shipping from wrecker in SA ate 600$ of that so you could count that out if you found stuff locally. So all up 4k. Similar cars around were about 3k (keep in mind I paid for a five brand new Bridgestone RE003, which I would have had to do with any other car).
Most amazing car I have ever had. 200kkm on the clock when bought, no smoke, no leaks (this was indeed a miracle in my experience), clean throughout, smooth transmission, air con like new, everything worked perfectly, what is not to like? I guess it's true they are properly built. The secret probably was that this car was a country car, driven by a lady about 140km/day highway commute, no dirt roads. Literally maintenance free for us.
Hi bishka.
The short and direct answer to your question is that we don't know, as we are not aware of the scope of work that you and the mechanic agreed on.
Seeing as you have referred to this a few times in this thread, I would be interested to know specifically and explicitly the scope of the quotation that you refer to. Can you please tabulate your response under the three headings below:
1 - What is in the written quotation that you refer to for work to be performed for $1k? ie What was explicitly included in the scope of work that you and the mechanic agreed to?
- Labour to perform what?
- Parts that were to be included?
- What was the agreed outcome of the work? ie what would be the trigger for the mechanic to issue an invoice?
2 - What are the things that you may have inferred or expected to be done as part of 1 above, but were not explicitly included in 1 above?
- Labour to perform what?
- Parts for what?
- Outcome that may not be been stated or agreed?
3 - What are the items in addition to 1 above, that took the invoice from the quoted $1k to the invoiced $3k?
- Labour to perform what?
- Parts?
- And, did you agree and provide authority for the mechanic to increase the scope and cost of the work to be performed prior to the mechanic progressing with the expanded scope?
Update
Lillydale ultratune want an estimated A$4000, plus fitting to replace the (now apparently blown) turbo. But can not get parts. And are unwilling to fit any second hand sourced turbo.
Can anyone recommend, suggest someone to fit this for me? I am at wits end.
I am now told it was the turbo that blew and killed the original engine and isnt working on the new engine.
Now $2000 on a motor and trans, plus $3k to fit it, I am in a big hole. What is the most painless way to get out other than setting my pug on fire and walking away?
Lillydale ultratune want an estimated A$4000, plus fitting to replace the (now apparently blown) turbo. But can not get parts. And are unwilling to fit any second hand sourced turbo.
Can anyone recommend, suggest someone to fit this for me? I am at wits end.
I am now told it was the turbo that blew and killed the original engine and isnt working on the new engine.
Now $2000 on a motor and trans, plus $3k to fit it, I am in a big hole. What is the most painless way to get out other than setting my pug on fire and walking away?
I am happy with the expanded scope, sorta. For example it made sense to do the timing belt while the engine was out of the car.
What I am not happy about is taking the advice to do such things and at the end still not having a working car. Well ate presnt the mechanic describes it as driveable but acknoledges the turbo is not funtioning.....so it is not working in my head...
I asked him to swap an engine, he quoted me $900. He ****** and had issues and charged me more. I wouldnt mind iof I had a car to show for my investment. HE is now walking away washing his hands and wont swap the turbo, cant find new stock and wont touch second hand parts.
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Turbo cartridges replacement are very cheap. Ask the seller to confirm fitment to your VIN
Most turbo specialists have access to these replacement if they can't repair.
Don't understand what they are quoting for
Most turbo specialists have access to these replacement if they can't repair.
Don't understand what they are quoting for
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How did you diagnose the turbo doesn't work?
Hi bishka.
Just to confirm my understanding about your situation.
- The existing engine stopped working, dont know why, it was removed including the turbocharger.
- A second hand replacement engine Including turbocharger was sourced and fitted.
- Are you now saying that the turbo in the secondhand engine is faulty? If so, I can't understand how this could occur?