Buying a French classic in Japan

[Sans_sagesse]

When looking to buy a French 'classic' recently, I stumbled across a few in Japan. I just couldn't pull the trigger in the end. An interesting avenue though, if you were inclined.
There were two I was sort-of keen on.
The first was a 1988 Peugeot 505 V6 auto, white, blue leather, 98,000km, LHD. It had been for sale in abt Feb at a dealer for abt AUD$20k, which seemed too rich for me. But then the dealer obviously gave up on selling it as it started to go though the auction system in May, passing in between $3k-$6k. Third time around it sold for about $5k, which works out at roughly $12k in the driveway in Oz.
The second was a S2 1987 Citroen CX2500 GTi, 122k km at a dealer in Yokohama for about $9k, so roughly $16k landed. Beautiful silver/blue colour with black leather but a few 'tells' in pics like mud and snow tyres. Could mean snow country corrosion, or not.
Cars like these seem to be very rare in Japan now, so it's not like you'll see them turn up every week. Like our market, any sniff of something being a classic also means it'll be expensive.
But in today's crazy used-car market, I though these two, esp the Peugeot, might have been good buying, if I was brave enough. I was just about to pull the trigger on the 505 (getting a broker to inspect it for me and if okay, bid on it) when it sold.
Have some more screenshots floating around if anyone's interested, but here's an interior pic of the 505. The leather needed a bit of work, obviously, but the rest of it was tidy.

 

[seasink]

LHD in Japan? Most of Japan is covered in deep snow in winter.

 

[Sans_sagesse]

LHD in Japan? Most of Japan is covered in deep snow in winter.

Lots of LHD cars exported to Japan. It's a status thing over there, apparently, and there are no regulations to stop such cars being sold there. Most Euro stuff, especially the more expensive cars, are LHD. I think just about all used French cars I've looked at for sale there are LHD.
As for snow, I have no idea, except I was told by a broker that cars from the north are more likely to see snow conditions and rust. Make of that what you will.

 

[Russell Hall]

A few Peugeots have made their way to Japan over the years but there has never been a dealer network so original condition might not be expected. Most famous was the 202 the head of the Bridgestone car company bought for his son while visiting Europe in 1938. The son became head of the company and later (perhaps 1980's) flew the car to France for a complete restoration. Came home to a climate controlled garage. I have a promotional photo of a Japanese 403.

 

[Sans_sagesse]

Here are two I'll have for starters please, when I win the lottery

XM is actually too new to import, have to be 25 years or more. Noticing a mix of RHD and LHD, which is odd. Premium XM is RHD, cheapo AX is LHD! The prices though...geez.

https://carfromjapan.com/cheap-used-citroen-xm-2001-for-sale-60c8cefcc9a22abf608499e5

https://carfromjapan.com/cheap-used-citroen-ax-1993-for-sale-60cc462cbdf09429e02a91f1

 

[seasink]

Japan is one of the snowiest places imaginable. Winter weather comes in from north Asia, and snow can be six feet deep. They dig passages through it for cars and pedestrians and climb roofs to shovel it off. There are a couple of places in the mountains such as Tateyama (near Toyama, same latitude as Tokyo) where 16 metre deep vertical sided "gorges" cut through snow on the road are a tourist attraction.

Rivers everywhere have been modified to minimise the floods from snow melt.

Snowy weather thins out in the lowland big cities on the Pacific side, only a few days per winter in Tokyo, but ski fields aren't far away.

Salt is used.

 

[J'aime la vie]

The on costs importing from Japan are not cheap. Bought a 300Zx in from Japan back in 2005 through Prestige motorsports who were an online broker. About AUD4400 in Japan, the Nissan had to wait in Japan until it turned 15. There must have been a 15 year rule in those days. I’ve looked at the Japanese XMs but very expensive at US22k. I think my Nissan landed and complied was about 3x the FOB Japan price.

 

[Sans_sagesse]

The on costs importing from Japan are not cheap. Bought a 300Zx in from Japan back in 2005 through Prestige motorsports who were an online broker. About AUD4400 in Japan, the Nissan had to wait in Japan until it turned 15. There must have been a 15 year rule in those days. I’ve looked at the Japanese XMs but very expensive at US22k. I think my Nissan landed and complied was about 3x the FOB Japan price.

Not all of them are worth what the dealers are asking -- look at that 505V6. It was a good one, but only $5k at auction.
You're right about the import costs, it all adds up and is expensive. The one benefit of a 30 year-old car is not having to go though expensive compliance ($2000), but then again, who knows what a state authority might demand for rego.
As for snow, well, I have been to Japan once for five days so really don't know the country well as seasink obviously does.
It is strange what he says about the extent of it though, and the sweeping implications of what that means about cars rusting there.
All I know, after 30 years of inspecting ex-Japan used cars for work or my own interest, is that there are plenty of them 20-30 years old that do not suffer from rust. I owned such a car and it looked no more dirty underneath than a car that's been driven in Sydney. No rust, no hint of corrosion on bolts or anything whatsoever. It has been in Japan for 12 years. I have owned an ex-UK car that had been there no more than 10 years. The underneath was not pretty. It was very rusty.

 

[seasink]

They may well have been driven in a local area. The country has extremes of winter climate - Arctic in the north, and tropical in the southern islands. Roughly speaking, the highlands see deepest snow, the Pacific coast cities see occasional snow. Many local roads are cleared by machine and aren't salted to my knowledge. My wife has had to walk behind a small tractor with a wall of snow shoulder height on each side in the north west. Railway snow ploughs can be spectacular.

 

[CC1701]

unless its something really special the total costs may well be too high. transport/s, landing, import taxes and charges add-up very quickly.
euro cars (exotics excepted) are virtually worthless in japan once they are more than 6 yo. until they become classics.
euro cars without a 3 pointed star just sit and are difficult to shift.
i think its best avoid lhd euro cars from japan, again unless its something special.
french cars are rare out side the major centres, there is no support or service. a frenchie would want to have a documented history.
a beautiful 9 yo v6 c5 tourer is virtually scrap because of the cost to bring its maintenace upto date, re-register and reinsure it.
as with classic markets anywhere, they are only worth what someone is willing to pay.
all in my opinion, others may see that value of a classic differently

 

[Sans_sagesse]

unless its something really special the total costs may well be too high. transport/s, landing, import taxes and charges add-up very quickly.
euro cars (exotics excepted) are virtually worthless in japan once they are more than 6 yo. until they become classics.
euro cars without a 3 pointed star just sit and are difficult to shift.
i think its best avoid lhd euro cars from japan, again unless its something special.
french cars are rare out side the major centres, there is no support or service. a frenchie would want to have a documented history.
a beautiful 9 yo v6 c5 tourer is virtually scrap because of the cost to bring its maintenace upto date, re-register and reinsure it.
as with classic markets anywhere, they are only worth what someone is willing to pay.
all in my opinion, others may see that value of a classic differently

I have had a fascination with the Japanese used car market for a long time, because they seem to have got all sorts of weird and wonderful cars over the years. many of them depreciate rapidly, so seem obtainable. Even now.

Some obscure Euro stuff turns up at the auctions, seemingly well preserved. For someone in Australia who wants to buy an unusual car for not too much cash, I think that the Japan auction system is the market to buy from, especially with the rolling 25-year import rule (although complicated by 30-year LHD rule in some states).

Of course if you were serious about bidding, you'd get the car checked out. There are some rusted-out, badly repaired junkers, like anywhere. A full service history is, I gather, a hard thing to come by out of Japan. The best you'll likely get is a certified mileage check/number of owners. I did that with my ex-Japan Seville for peace of mind.

CC1701, that idea of 'something special' is an interesting one. A few years ago, I would not have paid more than about $5k here in Oz for a very nice 505 V6 (not that there are any around). Even that sounds too much. There also seemed to be much more choice here generally for a classic or unusual car, even for less than $5k.

I've spent the last 6 months looking for a car. Everything has changed. There are a lot less for sale, for a lot more money. I had to use a different mindset. Like, be prepared to spend more money.

In today's market, where anything 30+years-old in tidy condition with low kilometres seems to go for five figures, then a LHD 505 V6 landed in Oz for $12k isn't out of this world. LHD might be a problem for some, but doesn't bother me.

People here are now paying what was not long ago stupid money, eg $30,000 and up for a T3 Kombi, $20k for a P38 Range Rover and $40,000 for a six-cyl Kingswood. Never mind a GTHO or even a very nice DS. I offered about 3x the going rate for an average GS for an immaculate one, and I was way off the mark. It sold for more. Dipping into five figures for classic isn't a lot these days.

Yes, there are exceptions, also many over-priced cars and lots of speculators, for sure. That goes with the territory. Also cars that might not be following the upwards trend so easily. For example I've seen a certain seemingly very nice Fuego for sale for ages; looks great but it isn't selling. Too much $, perhaps?

Much of the present supply/demand and resale value thing is of course due to covid. We are about 18 months in, and I don't see a lot of change; perhaps a cooling in some of the market, but not for anything remotely considered hot-ticket. How much it settles in a post-COVID world I have no idea. I don't think it'll fully return to the pre-covid values though. That ship has sailed.

 

[CC1701]

There certainly is a very wide selection of almost anything one can imagine available there, and cheap by au standards. Depreciation is steep on all cars as brand new ones are about half the price of here in au. generally euro cars drop like stones after just a few years. French cars go into freefall from the moment they leave the dealerships, like here they appeal to a special buyer type - traggic.

As J'aime la vie says, its not so much the cost of the car but the on-costs to get it on the road here will near triple the purchase price.

You're on the button about LHD cars and maintenace and repairs there. LHD is a status thing for people who just want to be noticed, and as such often poorly treated and maintained, exotics excepted. In typical througher japanese character, most cars have an extensive service history (its even required up to a certain age) but used dealers tend to loose them as fast as they can.
A five-ish years old a car is almost through it economic life in jp, so any repair work is done as cheaply as possible. This is especially something to watchout for in an classic because at some point in its life it was close to being uneconomic to keep on the road.

There are car traggics there too who love and pamper their unique cars obsessively though.

Please post the link to the 505 you're interested in. I'd love to have a look.

​

 

[RINGER]

Be very careful considering purchasing these older vehicles O/S as there traps for young players especially the following & these may not be the latest regulations:

Australian Border Force Website

Our mission is to protect Australia’s border and enable legitimate travel and trade.

www.abf.gov.au

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/imports/import_options/interim-measure.aspx

I've heard ABF horror stories about brake related asbestos brake component checks [not by your mechanic but theirs] & no care in doing so or time limits etc. you pay!
I've imported vehicles & other things from both the US & Japan when it was not so tight, but have not for some years now & it was easier in WA than Qld. re-cleaning vehicles that were properly cleaned before leaving the US. When I last imported a 40" container load of Husqvarna ride on mowers there were hassles about the wood packaging. Exactly the same packaging as dealer ones on the market here @ that time but that didn't matter.
Bureaucrats, not getting free lunches, can make things as difficult as they want.

 

[Sans_sagesse]

Here are a couple more pics of that 505 V6 in Japan (now sold). I've bought a 605 locally so I'm not searching anymore

 

[CC1701]

Congratulations on the 605, one of the best Peugeots from their best era.
The 505 looks ok too. However, I think the local 605 that you can see and touch before buying is a much safer and financially limited option.

As Ringer has commented, bring things into au can lead to lots of unexpected on-costs. We had the same situation a few years ago when when shipped stuff back packed on a wooden pallet, for what we thought would be convenience. How wrong we were, It went on like an tragic german opera — all at great cost, equally tragic. It was ongoing costs for inspection, unpacking, fumigation, more inspections and so on.
Its good that au customs are very througher but it was an expensive lesson.

Good luck with the 605 please post some pics when you get it.

 

[Sans_sagesse]

Congratulations on the 605, one of the best Peugeots from their best era.
The 505 looks ok too. However, I think the local 605 that you can see and touch before buying is a much safer and financially limited option.

As Ringer has commented, bring things into au can lead to lots of unexpected on-costs. We had the same situation a few years ago when when shipped stuff back packed on a wooden pallet, for what we thought would be convenience. How wrong we were, It went on like an tragic german opera — all at great cost, equally tragic. It was ongoing costs for inspection, unpacking, fumigation, more inspections and so on.
Its good that au customs are very througher but it was an expensive lesson.

Good luck with the 605 please post some pics when you get it.

Funnily enough, it wasn't the asbestos I was worried about so much. You can get a broker to sort everything out, including asbestos clearance certification before the car is shipped. Yes, that adds a fair bit to the import costs, but nothing like the costs if it all goes horribly wrong. Even though I trusted the broker whom I've known of for a long while, you're right, things can still go wrong before it's cleared from the port in Oz. But I was more worried about getting it certified for use in Oz. As far as I could see (which is not saying much), for historic rego all I would have needed was a roadworthy in NSW. But maybe it would need door intrusion barriers, etc, so the whole thing seemed to be getting too hard. I was about to give it a shot though, when someone else took the decision for me by buying the car instead.
My 605 is pretty well known around the traps. It is not in concourse condition, but close.

 

[CC1701]

Looks great, love the interior color and looks in fantastic condition all round. Excellent buy.

Imports: for us it was the wooden pallet. Had to be bug free. We couldn't get a document "certerfiying" that so the goods had to be unloaded, the pallet fumigated, goods repacked, then sent to us. It wasn't possible just to unpack the pallet, send us the goods and dispose of the pallet - too much common sense in that

Good luck with the new 605. Some updates from time to time would be great. I am envious.

 

[DoubleChevron]

If the Citroen is a CX GTi Turbo ..... forget the 505 and grab that ....

 

[Sans_sagesse]

If the Citroen is a CX GTi Turbo ..... forget the 505 and grab that ....

It wasn't, but I was still tempted... found some pics of it. It has since sold, I think.

 

[Milenium]

It is necessary to look carefully at the car in Japan, there are a lot of floods, drowned cars a lot. If you don't want to pay a lot for repairs, you should go to Japan or look for cars in Europe. Look at the auto museum where cars are in great condition, maybe you will like something else. You can even drive some of them. A car that has been kept in the garage is a big plus. Take care of the classics will grow in value. In the future, the cars will drive themselves and there will be no steering wheel.