Driving and cornering technique thread
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  1. #1
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    Driving and cornering technique thread

    Hi all,

    For a PUG loving forum, I am surprised there are not more threads to do with driving technique, taking corners, oversteer recovery, how to do hold a Power Slide, etc. I'm pretty keen on this stuff and haven't been too successful in finding good articles on the net...can anybody help?

    ps. also double-declutch..is everybody using this for their Pug? I have done and have seen drivers when going fast into 2nd gear corner from a 4th gear, heel-toe and then blip the so much so that you smack it straight into 2nd for that corner, skipping 3rd...if the revs are right, it is smooth as a babys bottom...is this no good for the clutch or gearbox?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    sill, helo.
    A bunch us of here talk about this sort of drivig and PRACTICE IT on race tracks!! now ive plunged you into coming to the wakefield meet tomorrow.!!!??
    As for driving techniques, we have mentioned how the suspention and tyres, brakes and egine power contribute to this... so its a matter of looking back really, at past threads.
    im not 100% on exactly what double-declutching is by your means, i used to know ut as needing to release clutch on the down shift, releasing both in Neutral and then into the next down gear. Witch is not necesary on most road cars unless they have some dog box arangement of some sort.
    As for rev matching and throttle bliping on the down shift, i do it all the time and have gone 5th to 2nd several times in my car (obviously whilst standing on the middle pedal), but never that hard on a road or track, as you don;t want to unstabelise the car mid corner, and then force on some trail braking, thus running wide or losing too much mid corner speed...
    one way to really put this all on test and show us just how keen you are to talk the talk AND WALK the walk!!, is our next track day!!!, which just happens to be tommorrow!!
    cheers Xq
    ... ptui!

  3. #3
    nJm
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    On double de-clutching and blipping the throttle - any tips for doing it in the 505 (due to its pedal placement)? I tend to blip the throttle on every down change, as I had to with my wornout clutch. I just do it out of habbit now. But to do it while on the brakes I find impossible - the pedals are just too far appart and the brake pedal is higher up than the accelerator as well.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Nick, as the 405/505 man himself if the pedal box is adjustable on these cars, you could get an after market pedal for the acclerator and bolt it closer to the brake, but be carefull how you do this, also im sure you can bend the accelerator arm to try and get closer to the brake..
    But i gotta ask, when will you need to drive this hard?? jokes, i forgot its a pug! lol.
    cheers Xq
    ... ptui!

  5. #5
    nJm
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    xqisid:
    But i gotta ask, when will you need to drive this hard?? jokes, i forgot its a pug! lol.
    cheers Xq
    Hahahaha, well you know with a whopping 71kw and 161nm it is important to always keep it in its power band .
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  6. #6
    Member McPug's Avatar
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    The fastest way on a sealed surface is not to induce any sort of slide. Slides occur when we've got something wrong.

    In order to corner well everything has to be set-up before the corner, right amount of braking, best gear selected. With two hands on the wheel you can then look through the corner and concentrate on the apex and reaplying the power.

    xqisid has got the best idea which is to practice it on the track. Try and ride as a passenger with someone that is good at it, everyone can learn from other drivers.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Double lcutching helps to save the synchro's.
    ie you clutch to shift out of gear, and clutch again to shift into gear.

    If you have FWD you will mostly experience oversteer when you lift off the throttle midcorner (depends on the corner speed, cmaber of the road, your car etc etc etc)
    FWD understeer happens when you go into the corer to fast. Just ease off until you regian traction. And the car starts to corner again.

    And now to put the money where the mouth is... Wakefield tomorrow.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    and btw have a lok at this link
    <a href="http://www.brisbaneperformance.com/tech.php" target="_blank">http://www.brisbaneperformance.com/tech.php</a>

    the cornering principles link.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    tekkie:
    Double lcutching helps to save the synchro's.
    ie you clutch to shift out of gear, and clutch again to shift into gear.

    If you have FWD you will mostly experience oversteer when you lift off the throttle midcorner (depends on the corner speed, cmaber of the road, your car etc etc etc)
    FWD understeer happens when you go into the corer to fast. Just ease off until you regian traction. And the car starts to corner again.
    This is an area where the 406 really excels. I'm staggered at how effectively you can control cornering with the throttle. Less understeer coming into a bend than with any non French FWD I've driven, but what there is you can control perfectly with the throttle. Who needs a steering wheel! Progressive , controllable, predictable. Hey, its as much fun as rear wheel drive!

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 27 May 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  10. #10
    nJm
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    That article from CAR magazine on peugeot suspension talks about that. So to do the many reviews from when the 406 was new which I currrently have on loan from Justin. They say it is a 405 that has grown up. You can maintain a faster speed through the corners and it is far more stable. In fact, they basically say you can't get any better than the 406 for stock standard setup on a 'family' FWD sedan.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    nJm:
    On double de-clutching and blipping the throttle - any tips for doing it in the 505 (due to its pedal placement)? I tend to blip the throttle on every down change, as I had to with my wornout clutch. I just do it out of habbit now. But to do it while on the brakes I find impossible - the pedals are just too far appart and the brake pedal is higher up than the accelerator as well.
    Nick,

    If you lossen the accelerator cable clamp on the carby and pull the cable as tight as you can and retighten the bolt, the pedal should then be almost as high as the brake pedal. This is how I have mine and it's not hard to heel-toe with my size 9.5 feet, so I'd imagine it would be even easier for a tall bloke like you.

    Dave
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  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Fasted conering in the 505 seems to be the classic slow in/fast out technique (i.e jump on the brakes just before the corner, then jump on the accelerator at the apex of the corner). The power level of a standard 505 means that jumping on the accelerator mid-corner only results in oversteer in slippery conditions.

    Dave
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Tekkie that link shows a cornering tech, used by karters to avery good afect. Its illustrates late apex hiting, rather than midle corner apex.
    Only fault with that is tyres tend to go quickly and its not always the best possible line, hence its only a referance.
    good link though
    cheers Xq
    ... ptui!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    You might even find that you get a significant performance boost if you follow Dave's suggestion. On tthe 504 twin carby auto's the second one woiuldn't open if the throttle cable was too loose or the accelerator pedal support bar was bent so the pdeal sat too low. I'd be checking that the accelerator pedal bracket isn't distorted too.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 27 May 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    davemcbean:
    Fasted conering in the 505 seems to be the classic slow in/fast out technique (i.e jump on the brakes just before the corner, then jump on the accelerator at the apex of the corner). The power level of a standard 505 means that jumping on the accelerator mid-corner only results in oversteer in slippery conditions.

    Dave
    I always felt that with regular 504's and 505's and a "balanced" tyre setup you could pretty well accelerate all the way through the corner, ideally hitting the torque band at around the apex. You never really get into serious oversteer, (unless you drop the back pressure a bit) but you still corner pretty fast. There is so much inherent "overkill" in the things that you can afford to come onto the power early.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  16. #16
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Re: throttle blipping, this was one of the first things dad taught me when I got confident driving his 85 Alfa Sprint when I was learning. The dual webbers on these things made the engine very responsive and with the pedals really close together I became quirte profitiant at matching throttle and speed.

    With the pug, the lower throttle response and slower un-loaded reving makes it a little harder, but the close pedals still make it very possible. I find I do use it most down changes.

    With double de-clutching, its funny that people (even those who are decent drivers) get it all confussed.

    We did have a thread a while back on driving techniques though.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    nJm:
    That article from CAR magazine on peugeot suspension talks about that. So to do the many reviews from when the 406 was new which I currrently have on loan from Justin. They say it is a 405 that has grown up. You can maintain a faster speed through the corners and it is far more stable. In fact, they basically say you can't get any better than the 406 for stock standard setup on a 'family' FWD sedan.
    Pretty right I reckon, Nick. Its still surprisng me! Less "twitchy" than your average hot hatch, but very controllable and very , very competent.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 27 May 2003, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    i m with Mcpug here...if all s well setup into a corner ie.speed, gear selection then the exit should be clean and SPEED effective...and whats the deal with double clutching.???...its either IN gear or not????right ????hell u can go straight from 5th to first if you know how 2 handle your breaking properly????right???and with free spinning motors its pretty easy to get your throtle up to speed...hmmm interesting topic...i think i ll have to take my 205 for a spin soon...

    cheers
    dino

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Fasted conering in the 505 seems to be the classic slow in/fast out technique (i.e jump on the brakes just before the corner, then jump on the accelerator at the apex of the corner).
    I have to agree with dave here although the "fast out" principle in a 505 is a tad flawed mallet But it certainly work's. As long as the STi engine is above 3000-3500revs when you hit the acc on exit.

    But then again I know that throwing a 505 at a corner at a decent (fast but not idiotic) speed and it will usually keeps in shape as long as it has decent tyres!!

    The power level of a standard 505 means that jumping on the accelerator mid-corner only results in oversteer in slippery conditions.
    What power levels??

    NO ONE informed me about POWER being in a 505!!! snail roll_lau roll_lau

    Jono
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    hi Xqisid, Tekkie;

    one way to really put this all on test and show us just how keen you are to talk the talk AND WALK the walk!!, is our next track day!!!, which just happens to be tommorrow!!
    Yep I agree with ya, gotta do the Johny Walker "walk the walk"! Even though I have absolute zippo track experience, I fink balls and enthusiasm 'may' actually compensate on the racetrack! wink not!

    Unfortunately, my Pug 205 GTis been sold not too long ago- not to despair I think I will cave in to temptation of buying something else soon.... Advance driver course, track days etc sound good, Though the 1st coupla times will prob. resemble episodes of Ozis Worst Track Driver on Channel Ten! Hey, but u gotta start from somewhere....

    Thanks, gotta read those links moro. And study track and motor videos, just saw Best Motoring Vol6..a Jap VDO. Gotta study up on the theory to prepare for the track day in the future man...
    *********A.K.A Eddy W*********
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    92 PUG 205 GTi SIII Race Green... gone..gone..gone..

  21. #21
    nJm
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    crosspug:

    But then again I know that throwing a 505 at a corner at a decent (fast but not idiotic) speed and it will usually keeps in shape as long as it has decent tyres!!

    The power level of a standard 505 means that jumping on the accelerator mid-corner only results in oversteer in slippery conditions.
    What power levels??

    NO ONE informed me about POWER being in a 505!!! snail roll_lau roll_lau

    Jono
    I think that was the problem I had at first on the last AussieFrogs cruise down here - I was treating the 505 like a FWD car. That is, using lift off and brakes to correct any understeer. However that of course just means it will slide the tail a little bit I got the hang of just 'nailing' the throttle in the later stages though . It definately provided the best balance.

    As for oversteer slides, well only under sever provocation or in slippery conditions on less than perfect tyres shy . I think there is a photo in the multimedia section on the main site (under the review for the 505TD).
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Hey GO FOR IT. In this situation Talking dosen't teach. EXPERIENCE DOES along with helpful critique from an experienced track driver preferable one who WINS. Your first Spin will teach you a lot, and until you have that spin your not trying hard enough.
    All car/driver combo's have limits, a big lose or complete spin in controlled circumstances simply means you breached the limit and respond accordingly. ie. Slow down, try a different line thru the corner, different tyres & or tyre pressure.
    It takes not only a good car, but a great many hours practice and NO FEAR to reach greatness as a driver.
    Something most of us will never achieve, but it's a shit load of fun trying to be good drivers. cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

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  23. #23
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I never spun at Wakefield and posted the fastest time, but apparently I wasn't trying hard enough :p Sorry, just blowing my own trumpet there.

    Track time is very useful, but is also very different to driving fast on the road. And, of course, NONE of us drive fast on the public roads. wink My biggest issue is dealing with bumps in the road that can throw your line out. On the track it's easy as any movement of the car is easily controlled and brought back, as the road is a constant flat surface...except the camber, but there's no potholes to throw the balance out. So all you do is pick the apex, throw the car in and control the throttle inputs to get out the other side.

    Oh I miss driving my Pug...sigh...
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote.
    ""never spun at Wakefield and posted the fastest time, but apparently I wasn't trying hard enough Sorry, just blowing my own trumpet there.""

    I'm pleased for your win. However it dosen't mean you can't improve further or that some others wont gain confidence & blow you away.
    If you don't learn something with each outing/event you aren't trying.
    I look at Sprints & hillclimbs as Myself and the Car against the clock and enjoy myself immensely
    and realistically my blown R10 has little chance of beating a blown or turbo'd V6 or V8 and these are in the same class " Over 2L Sports sedan"
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

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  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The double de-clutch:

    -starting in a higher gear eg. 4th

    -engage clutch, move to neutral, disengage clutch

    -blip accelerator to desired revs

    -re-engage clutch and move to desired lower gear (eg. 3rd or 2nd depending on road speed)

    This technique is easier on the synchros as earlier pointed out. By disengaging the clutch in neutral it spins everything up to speed and is easier on the gears and clutch instead of just feeling smoother if you do it with the clutch engaged. (I'm sure someone has a better technical explanation for this and I would to if I thought about it)

    As you get better at this you will be able to corner more quickly and confidently. You need to over-rev the engine a bit as the revs fall in the short time taken to re-engage the clutch and put it into gear. All it takes is practice. I've been doing it as habit in my 504 because the first one I had had buggered synchros in 2nd and this of course was originated when dog-engagement was the norm and there were no synchros.

    If you're really good you don't even need the clutch but this is hard with free-revving engines and I haven't been willing to try this on my 504. Anyone have any more ideas on this?

    Have fun,

    Chris.

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