4WD's and SUV's
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Thread: 4WD's and SUV's

  1. #1
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    4WD's and SUV's

    Hi all,

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    This is an extension of a topic we had going a fair while ago.

    Can you believe that in America there is an organisation called SUVOA: Sport Utility Vehicles Owners of America? It is an interest group supporting SUV owners with claims such as
    replacing all SUVs to be sold in 2003 with passenger cars would save one dayís worth of oil in this country. But because SUVs are more protective of their occupants in the vast majority of crashes compared to passenger vehicles, the death rate on our nationís highways would unquestionably increase. No one wants to be put in the position of putting a dollar value on their loved ones.
    This link is very interesting:
    <a href="http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/features/2003/05/19/FFXQKYQCVFD.html" target="_blank">http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/features/2003/05/19/FFXQKYQCVFD.html</a>

    As is the SUVOA site at <a href="http://www.suvoa.com" target="_blank">http://www.suvoa.com</a>

    For interest's sake:
    "The SUV Owner's Bill of Rights" <a href="http://www.suvoa.com/rights.php" target="_blank">http://www.suvoa.com/rights.php</a>
    "Safe Driving Tips" <a href="http://www.suvoa.com/tips.php" target="_blank">http://www.suvoa.com/tips.php</a>

    When performing an avoidance maneuver, firm, consistent steering, braking and throttle inputs will almost always work better than a yank on the wheel, both feet on the brakes or jamming the accelerator.
    I wouldn't want to jam the accelerator OR try both feet on the brakes myself eek!

    Happy reading question

    Derek

  2. #2
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    And here are the "infringment notices" that are the topic of the article in Drive.com.au

    <a href="http://www.earthonempty.com/" target="_blank">http://www.earthonempty.com/</a>

    Derek.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    'earthonempty'? Shouldn't that be 'brainonempty' for most drivers of these urban assault vehicles? mallet
    You're not paranoid if everyone hates you.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I got this from another forum, I don't know the source of the base information, but maybe it bears checking out?

    The SUV, the image created by the manufacturers gives the owner and driver a new freedom, a secure haven for themselves and their children and the rugged appearance normally associated with the pioneers of American history. But, this image does not bear close scrutiny

    The outstanding growth of sales has not been without penalties; the high fuel consumption, on average a third more than cars, has given rise to claims that this factor alone contributed to the US intervention in the Middle East. The safety factor is a much maligned advertising hype, children, the very individuals that the owners seek to protect have been victims because of the limited vision around the vehicle. The anti SUV brigade cites instances of children being run over by parents because SUV’s lack the normal visibility around the vehicle.

    Deaths caused by roll-over has been estimated to be as high as 2000 people from 70,000 incidents, the number of deaths from the Ford/ Firestone related roll-overs was 300, the number of 12,000 killed by SUV roll-over from incidents unrelated to tire failure passed unnoticed. The much-vaunted Ford Explorer is 16 times more likely to kill the occupants of the other vehicle in multi vehicle accidents.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ok..guys....i must say something here since i ocassionaly drive a 4wd...some of u might already know that i own a jeep cherokee....my conclusion after owning and driving this vehicle (an experiance which i m sure would not be 2 disimilar to other 4wds)...:::
    PEOPLE WHO DRIVE AND OWN THESE VEHICLES ARE "******S" . (full stop)....the cars are a pile of junk and should be removed from this planet unless they r to be used for what they were intended for...ie agricultural transport....so having said that...i really dont have a problem with your foresters, volvo 4x4, audis etc....as many of them are quite good drivers (cars that is)...the rest of the big monsters (including the jeep which by the way is 1/2 meter shorter than a basic commodore) should be TAXED out of existance....

    cheers
    dino

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    The annoying thing is that these vehicles have a lower import duty.

    15% - normal cars.
    5% - 4WDs (over a certain ground clearence).

    I really see no reason for this, perhaps just pandering to rural interests. Surely the assistance could be more directed.

    Cheers,

    Justin

    BTW, I've resisted the temptation to talk about the XC90 being the only SUV with a conscience roll_lau

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ...at least the europens are half decent handlers...comparing landcruisers handling 2 something like the beemers 4x4 is like comparing the handling of my 205gti to a corona....

    cheers
    dino
    ps...we really need a cultural change...i m sick of seening 4 foot tall women(driving their lexus landcruiser) wearing half a tone of gold trying to find a parking spot in an EMPTY shopping centre car park...

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    dino:
    ...at least the europens are half decent handlers...comparing landcruisers handling 2 something like the beemers 4x4 is like comparing the handling of my 205gti to a corona....

    cheers
    dino
    ps...we really need a cultural change...i m sick of seening 4 foot tall women(driving their lexus landcruiser) wearing half a tone of gold trying to find a parking spot in an EMPTY shopping centre car park...
    Dino,

    My best/worst experience was driving into an empty shopping centre car park on a Sunday morning to pick up bread from the baker (the only shop open in the centre) & coming back to find there were now 3 vehicles in the car park; the other two a Nissan & Toy wank tanks were parked either side of me so close I had to ask them nicely to move so we could open the doors to get into our car. moon
    (Definition of asking nicely "how @#$%^&* stupid would you have to be to do this?? #!$$ it orf willya???") best part was, they looked surprised that we asked them...bloody fruitloops most of 'em I reckon. mallet mallet
    I can't speak for everybody else, but just for a laugh, we try to pick the drivers of these things when we're waiting in car parks...give it a try sometimes; it's not all that hard to do. I know we're not supposed to type cast people but these characters do it to themselves. roll_lau roll_lau tongue

    Alan S
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Alan S
    <strong>.....we try to pick the drivers of these things when we're waiting in car parks...give it a try sometimes; it's not all that hard to do. I know we're not supposed to type cast people but these characters do it to themselves.
    Sounds like fun, I might have to do that...

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    Guys
    Look, if people want to drive around in a large overweight fuel guzzling piece of junk, that's just fine by me, I'm all for freedom of choice and liberty etc.
    The self appointed experts (read Tree Hugging Marxist Ratbags)who oppose liberty and freedom by trying to ban and stigmatise everything should *not* be supported in my opinion.
    I am just glad I don't *have* to drive one just as they are glad that they don't *have* to drive a Frog.
    What happened to the old saying..VIVE LA DIFFERANCE ..?

    As for the argument about saving oil, does anybody really think that is going to make any difference at all, the oil will be burnt in one way or another, whether in an SUV or 50cc Moped, either way it is still burnt and ends up in the environment, it might just take a little while longer with the Moped....BUT THE END RESULT IS THE SAME.

    As for
    PEOPLE WHO DRIVE AND OWN THESE VEHICLES ARE "******S"
    and you really think owning a different car is going to change that?...get a hold of it!

    And are French cars really any different?
    France uses a very large percentage of nuclear energy. The chances are very good that your socially responsible (haha) Pug, Ren or Cit was smelted from ore using energy from a nuclear reactor somewhere in Europe that is creating dangerous radioctive waste that no one quite knows what to do with.

    Be careful when throwing stones...

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Avatar
    <strong>.....France uses a very large percentage of nuclear energy. The chances are very good that your socially responsible (haha) Pug, Ren or Cit was smelted from ore using energy from a nuclear reactor somewhere in Europe that is creating dangerous radioctive waste that no one quite knows what to do with.....
    Where do you get this idea?

    Follow some of the other threads (or was there just one?) about nuclear energy and see that you're way out of your depth.

    Nuclear power is a Godsend for Europe, saving thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of lives every year.

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    That maybe so Ray, I was just trying to make the point that we are not all as squeaky clean as we think ourselves to be. cheers!

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    I wasn't saying we're squeaky clean, I was more concerned with the first quote I provided where the SUVOA organisation is admitting that its members drive big heavy cars to protect themselves in an accident (which puts other car drivers and passengers at their mercy).

    I guess it's the old 'if you can't beat them, join them' adage.

    My family does drive small cars for the benefits of fuel efficiency, and where we need bigger engines for load hauling capacity or engines that run many hours in the week we use LPG (less emissions than a comparable petrol engine).

    Embarassingly, my car (the 306) has pretty much the worst fuel economy of them all allowing for the size of the vehicle. My sister's 504 uses only marginally more fuel and it's a much bigger car.

    Derek.

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    hheheheh....BE CAREFUL WHEN THROWING STONES.....hehehheh.....i m about to piss myself laughing...nuclear energy...WHATTHA!????
    so u r basically telling me that (in the name of viva la difference)these 4x4 ******S have made the right decision when they originally purchased such monstrosities.....you really believe a LANDCRUISER is required 2 pick up the kids and the shopping when most BASIC stationwagons have greater load capacity (practical..ie u can hardly fold the seats down if the kid is sitting in it???right???....) I m sorry mate ....but i really question your sensebility here...i believe in freedom of choice just like the next guy/gal but IN my opinion most of these vehicles are bought as STATUS symbls...the owners like 2 see their new pajero next to the new merc etc etc...
    the other crazy thing is ...U OBVIOUSLY missed the part where I SAID that I OWNED such a monstrosity...so take it from me(if u know anything about cars) these people are ******s....rich but ******s....

    cheers
    dino

  15. #15
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Guys
    Look, if people want to drive around in a large overweight fuel guzzling piece of junk, that's just fine by me, I'm all for freedom of choice and liberty etc.
    The self appointed experts (read Tree Hugging Marxist Ratbags)who oppose liberty and freedom by trying to ban and stigmatise everything should *not* be supported in my opinion.
    I am just glad I don't *have* to drive one just as they are glad that they don't *have* to drive a Frog.
    What happened to the old saying..VIVE LA DIFFERANCE ..?
    Okay, so what do you think about the issue of 4WD owners having to pay less tax on their vehicles than others? That's not very fair.

    I don't see why the government should provide assistance to the drivers of Toorak tractors, especially considering almost none of the manufacturers make any effort to reduce the impact of their vehicles. I can just imagine the economists just saying "dead weight loss".

    Normally when you grant a tax subsidy, you're trying to encourage something positive. I fail to see where that positive is in this situation.

    Sure, give people the choice, but why the hell should we give them an incentive?

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    I agree people have the choice to buy/try to drive their 4wd etc in the city.

    BUT why should I pay 10% more for a bmw, merc volvo or Pug, cit, ren for that matter that has 6 airbags all the bloody gadgets on the planet to help me in an accident.

    I simply think that if they want to be safe by pure size not some much quality, they should pay the same amount as I would in tax.....

    (admittedly the newer bimmer etc have all the gadgets on the 4wd's but they are hardly going to be bought by a rural family for farm use.)

    Hell I have friends that have 4wd's in the city but they also USE they on their property.

    Ever seen a "Grand Cherrokee" with guys with spots hanging out the power windows, while a guy with a .222M is hanging out the back tearing round a paddock after fox????

    Quite Bloody amusing I must say. roll_lau

    But why should they pay less ??

    maybe PUG or CIT should look into a RAISING kit for the 307/406 or C5/C2 lets try to get a factory setting above the height limit!!!!!!!! (resetable of course) Cheaper Frenchies!!!!
    mallet a_drink
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  17. #17
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    As a few are aware, I'm in the middle of this Travelsafe Inquiry making recommendations into learner drivers & prior to a recent paper report on a fatality, I had already raised my concerns with the committee at the safety risks being encountered by the average driver in normal day to day situations involving these things and managed to get them on to the agenda through suggesting a separate licensing scheme to in part address the problem.
    Here's a portion of a report from last week's "Sunday Mail" where a guy was jailed for his involvement in a fatality.
    I have added facets of this to my previous submission as further items requiring scrutiny. These have included, "parental responsibility"....a 17 year old being allowed to own & drive unsupervised something like that is lunacy.....
    and the vehicle that this young fellows car struck didn't rate a mention apart from what it was. Now it's hypothetical what the outcome would have been if he would have been struck by a passenger vehicle, but surely something with a progressive crumple rate & reasonable manouvering ability would have given this guy more hope than hitting a ton & a half of mobile brick wall. In my submission, I referred to 4WD/SUVs as appearing to be treated as a 'protected species' and this proves the point.

    "On the day of the tragedy, Lee had taken possession of a high-powered Toyota Supra, and he was driving to Albion in Brisbane's inner north to pay it off.

    Travelling at 120km/h to 130km/h northbound on the South-East Freeway near Holland Park, Lee crossed three lanes of traffic, smashing into the rear of Phillip's Telstar at 8.15am.

    The Telstar was pushed across the median strip, clipped a bus and hit a southbound Pajero four-wheel-drive vehicle. Phillip died instantly.

    Before police pieced together details, Mr Robinson would drive around the Gold Coast trying to work out how it could happen.

    Finding that answer, attending Lee's sentencing and providing a submission to the Travelsafe committee has given him closure.

    Of Lee's hearing in January, when he was jailed for two years, suspended after four months, Mr Robinson said: "I'm looking at this kid, thinking, 'You're not a criminal, you're just a guy who shouldn't be in that car.' "

    The whole tragic story is at:

    <a href="http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6486854%255E2765,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6486854%255E2765,00.html</a>

    Alan S
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  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Sorry, Alan, I don't see what this has to do with SUVs...

    The wrongdoing was done in a Supra...

    Or is your point about young people driving anything without supervision?

    Really, the issue here is the lack of understanding of the issues involved in driving by a young oriental chap whose parents probably gave him the money for the car.

    The issues:

    Lack of responsibility - physically and financially.

    Not interested in the dynamics of driving - so will never learn.

    Wasn't watching what he was doing - couldn't have been!

  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The point is that in the end, the cause of the accident, the young guy with the over generous family got slotted for his part in the accident but the outcome was possibly made worse by the fact that the oncoming vehicle was what it was. As I said, we are talking hypothesis here but as I have witnessed where I live on more than one occasion, these things are not very manouverable at a bit of speed, in this case possibly 90 - 110kph so the chances of the other vehicle firstly either swerving to avoid him was limited due to it being a "tank" coupled with the factor of it being rigid & solid hence little or no impact absorbtion came from the Pajero, brakes & tyres only second rate for several reasons including vehicle weight, designed use & tread style. Effectively it was akin to hitting a brick wall but one coming straight at you. Had he swerved, god only knows what a trail of devastation he'd have left behind if it did the usual things these do & start whipping from one side of the freeway to the other (in peak hour traffic) eek!
    In any accident wash up, all the contributing factors have to be weighed up & whilst I wouldn't have given the victim much of a chance in these circumstances, I still feel he would have had some albeit a small one had the oncoming vehicle been something more road user friendly than what it was.
    Where it fits into the overall picture is as a "contributing factor" in the death of this young person; something that won't be acknowledged as it suits the political purpose to refer to this totally as a "speed related" death. This is the main reason I've bought into this Inquiry so that they can't get it all their own way without a fight.
    The latest fad around our way now is for Senior Citizens to now be heading in two directions transport wise. One is mobility scooters (complete with orange golf buggy type flag) whilst the other is for the silver headed matrons to be driving Cruisers & big Nissana...what a nice lethal combination...keep an eye on the press, it's only a matter of time.
    mallet
    Alan S

    <small>[ 28 May 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    GOD I LOVE THIS TOPIC.

    BUT why should I pay 10% more for a bmw, merc volvo or Pug, cit, ren for that matter that has 6 airbags all the bloody gadgets on the planet to help me in an accident.

    I simply think that if they want to be safe by pure size not some much quality, they should pay the same amount as I would in tax.....
    Hear Hear. If the ******s want to buy these things for urban transport (and pollute the environment more, pay more for fuel, tires, etc.) that's fine. But the government is encouraging the spread of these tanks buy allowing the (quite substantial) tax saving.

    Ren
    cheers!
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    Seems to me there are several options for all of you deeply concerned citizens:

    1. Take the bus
    2. Stay at home, lock the doors and watch *more* media inspired hysteria.
    3. Buy a 4wd of your own so if you happen to hit something you might be safer than the other guy.

    Meanwhile....well I'm just going to enjoy getting on with life and driving my Frogs. wink

    cheers!

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ....u obviously haven t seen what one of these body on agricultural chassis mostrosities will do to an average sedan in an accident (which was probably caused by inability to control the bloody things)....its when i hear comments like this that i appreciate my decision to put my wife and kid behind the wheel of a volvo more and more....hell yes....i could have let her drive the jeep around (great turning circle) but after just recently experiancing a blow out at 90km even she (learner driver) saw how hazardous this things are at speed....i just managed to catch it before going into a fish tail....so....there is one thing WORSE than risking your life in such vehicles and that is the apathy for the life of others...

    cheers
    dino...

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Did I ever mention, dino... about the guy from the SES at Nambour?

    They get a lot of accidents up there, he's pulled lots of dead bodies from cars. Especially from Volvos.

    But he's never pulled a body out of a Peugeot.

    Make of that what you will...

  24. #24
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Seems to me there are several options for all of you deeply concerned citizens:

    1. Take the bus
    2. Stay at home, lock the doors and watch *more* media inspired hysteria.
    3. Buy a 4wd of your own so if you happen to hit something you might be safer than the other guy.

    Meanwhile....well I'm just going to enjoy getting on with life and driving my Frogs. wink

    cheers!
    Sunshine, when next in Queensland, give me a call & I'll take you for a drive in the REAL World of these things. I'm sure UFO who visited me recently can verify that where I am is no Sunday picnic with these things. I took him for a drive to see the sights and in so doing the conversation went something like this;..."That cross there? that's where a women was killed & seven backpackers who hit her head on in a Troopy ended up....those 3 crosses there? that's where one speared off the road & 3 backpackers in a Rover soft top were killed...those two crosses there? that's where one ran off the road edge & rolled killing one inside & one that was thrown out...that one there?........." get the picture?? That's within a 3 kilometre radius of where I live.
    Media hysteria to you, is a fact of life for a lot of other people, so before you start giving of the promotional advice that's eminating from those with a vested interest in doing so, come & see what it really IS all about & then you might start taking some of your own advice!!

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  25. #25
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    Volvo sell more cars than here than Peugeot? Higher tendency for Volvo owners to go on driving trips?

    I hope your not insinuating that somehow driving a safe car makes Volvo owners apathetic towards safety?

    RE: 4WD's lower tax. It made sense for a while, because 4WD's are essential for farming activity and the farming lobby is very powerful. Now the situation is just stupid, the market has changed completely.

    My uncle has a Range Rover HSE V8, which sits under a carport, and is only used when he and his wife (with their 2 german shepherds) go to their holiday house in Lorne. They have 2 other cars. My cousin has a Renault 19, when it had a terminal argument with a truck while my uncle/aunt were overseas, which car did she grab? you guessed it, the gas guzzling monstrosity... (She is 18) Slightly insane methinks.
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