Quick question re: BA7/5
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Default Quick question re: BA7/5

    Just a quick question which I'm sure the brains trust will find overly simple:

    Does the BA7/5 from a Douvrin engine require a different bellhousing and/or clutch from the 2 litre pushrod engine, or is it the same?

    Much thanks for any help...

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    Binky

  2. #2
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Different bell housing, different input shaft, different flywheel but the same clutch.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Thanks for the quick reply Demannu

    Next question:

    Hard to change or not? (assuming I'm pulling out the gearbox and cracking open to make sure it's okay)...

    I'm assuming bellhousing is easy to change, but as for the rest ???


    Binky.

  4. #4
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Yep, easy enough to swap it all. The problem lies with the input shaft - while it is simple enough to swap with a different one, the common wisdom on the topic says "don't". There were a couple of different tooth profiles, and an unmatched pair will mean a very short life before the entire gearbox is a throwaway item. Even the correct profiles when paired with anything other than their original installation has proven to be generally unreliable (with some exceptions).

    Your better bet is to modify the input shaft. Stick it in a lathe, drill a 10mm hole down the end of it. Turn up a stepped shaft to be an interference fit into that hole, with just over 16mm at the wide end. Weld around the join, then turn the whole thing down to 16mm. Cut off the end to be 12mm longer than it was originally.

    I've done this a couple of times now to use ZDJ gearboxes behind either an XN motor or an XD motor. It's simply not worth the risk of mixing input shafts.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binky View Post
    Just a quick question which I'm sure the brains trust will find overly simple:

    Does the BA7/5 from a Douvrin engine require a different bellhousing and/or clutch from the 2 litre pushrod engine, or is it the same?

    Much thanks for any help...


    Binky
    Which way are you heading, push rod to Douvrin or the other way?
    Graham

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Yep, easy enough to swap it all. The problem lies with the input shaft - while it is simple enough to swap with a different one, the common wisdom on the topic says "don't". There were a couple of different tooth profiles, and an unmatched pair will mean a very short life before the entire gearbox is a throwaway item. Even the correct profiles when paired with anything other than their original installation has proven to be generally unreliable (with some exceptions).

    Your better bet is to modify the input shaft. Stick it in a lathe, drill a 10mm hole down the end of it. Turn up a stepped shaft to be an interference fit into that hole, with just over 16mm at the wide end. Weld around the join, then turn the whole thing down to 16mm. Cut off the end to be 12mm longer than it was originally.

    I've done this a couple of times now to use ZDJ gearboxes behind either an XN motor or an XD motor. It's simply not worth the risk of mixing input shafts.
    Thanks again Demannu. I had to read your post a couple of times before I fully understood it, but that's my fault, not yours.

    So I gather that the difference is in the length of the input shaft where it reaches the spigot/pilot bearing?

    ...that shouldn't be too hard to overcome, thanks to your instruction. So then do I use a standard XN flywheel and BA7-4 speed bellhousing to finish the job?




    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Which way are you heading, push rod to Douvrin or the other way?
    Graham
    I'm not doing anything until I work out whether it is worthwhile. I'm actually asking on my dad's behalf, but we were thinking about going from Douvrin to pushrod.

    Binky

  7. #7
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binky View Post
    I had to read your post a couple of times before I fully understood it, but that's my fault, not yours.
    Sorry, it's a little bit hard to describe in words when I'm so used to seeing them in the metal!

    Basically, an XN input shaft is 12mm longer than a ZxJ series input shaft. The pushrod engine has a 16mm spigot, and the OHC Douvrin has a 17mm spigot.

    It's really not that hard, and even if you don't have the equipment or inclination to go that way, if you take the input shaft to a half competent machine shop, they're only looking at perhaps an hours labour at the most and labour charge appropriate to that amount of time. The last one I did took me 40 minutes including all the machining and welding. And I'm certainly no pro on the lathe.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Sorry, it's a little bit hard to describe in words when I'm so used to seeing them in the metal!

    Basically, an XN input shaft is 12mm longer than a ZxJ series input shaft. The pushrod engine has a 16mm spigot, and the OHC Douvrin has a 17mm spigot.

    It's really not that hard, and even if you don't have the equipment or inclination to go that way, if you take the input shaft to a half competent machine shop, they're only looking at perhaps an hours labour at the most and labour charge appropriate to that amount of time. The last one I did took me 40 minutes including all the machining and welding. And I'm certainly no pro on the lathe.
    No apology necessary! Your advice has been great!

    My problem was that at first I thought you were referring to the splines, whereas in fact you were talking about the tooth profile inside the gearbox. So as I said, my bad, not yours. Now I understand it properly, your instructions are very simple and straightforward.

    So will a ba7/4 bellhousing and standard XN flywheel suffice to complete the job, or do I need an XN BA7/5 flywheel and bellhousing? I figure that if I need the latter, I might as well buy an entire matching gearbox, but then again, I figure that you wouldn't have bothered performing such a conversion if that was required? ...

  9. #9
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Yes, I should have been more clear, I was referring to the teeth inside the gearbox.

    But now that you bring it up, when you compare the two input shafts side by side, the splines actually look quite different - but in fact are the same. It's just the shape of the 'cone' bit on the front of the spline (where it initially mates with the clutch during installation) is a different shape, and of course it looks much closer to the end on the Z shafts when compared to the XN shafts.

    But the part of the spline where the clutch driven plate sits when the engine is assembled is in fact exactly the same between the two, the profile of the splines is identical.

    So when you see them you'll immediately notice that they don't look the same, but don't stress, they are!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Thanks for that clarification Demannu

    At the risk of being annoying, I'll ask again (I'm not casting aspertions, nor complaining. I'm just grateful for any help):


    Will a ba7/4 bellhousing and standard XN flywheel suffice to complete the job, or do I need an XN BA7/5 flywheel and bellhousing? I figure that if I need the latter, I might as well buy an entire matching gearbox, but then again, I'm guessing that you wouldn't have bothered performing such a conversion if that was required?

    Binky

  11. #11
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Sorry again, I completely forgot to answer that question on the last post!

    The BA7/4 flywheel and clutch is identical to the BA7/5 flywheel and clutch. If you're putting it behind an XN engine, all you need is a 404/504/505 XN flywheel and clutch, regardless of whether it's 4 or 5 speed.

    The flywheels are different between the XN and the ZDJL engines, but the clutch is the same.

    The bell housings, however, are a slightly different matter.

    In about 1981-82, 504s and 505s changed from the early style of input shaft (with an 'endless screw' oil trap arrangement) to the later style (with a conventional rubber oil seal). The bell housings are not cross-compatible, and the change also marked one of the significant changes in input shaft tooth pitch, meaning that you cannot just swap the input shaft either.

    The bell housings CAN be modified to suit. I did have a post up here on how I do it, but it was lost in the great crash. Basically, I drifted the bronze sleeve from the front of both of the bell housings, and machined out the earlier style bell housing to accept the later model oil seal. It works perfectly (and is still fitted to my every day driver 60,000kms on).

    Otherwise, if you don't want to do any more machining, to fit a BA7/5 to an XN motor you will need either a late model 504 bell housing (wagons were sold up to 1983 in Australia and the last of them had the right bell housing), or the bell housing from a 505 SR or late GR, which both ran BA7/5s. In fact, if you could get hold of the entire gearbox from one of these, all your problems would be solved.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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