205 GTi custom gearbox
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! deltone's Avatar
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    Default 205 GTi custom gearbox

    Hi gang

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    im strongly considering changing the GTi6 gearbox in my 205 back to a BE3 5 speed. Only reason being that if i have to turn tightly to the right i might as well manouver with the handbrake!

    Now this is for ther T16 engine, when tuned id be hoping for around 350 HP and max 400NM torque.

    Obviously the gearbox will have the Quaife.

    I have a collection of boxes i can make use of...

    BE1 or 3 off a BX
    BE3 off Si
    BE3 Series 3 GTi
    BE3 series 2 GTi
    BE3 Series 1 GTi
    BE3 GTI6
    BE3 off what i belive was a diesel car, this gearbox is supposed to be stronger.

    I would like to make one "perfect" Box out of the ones listed above and in the process perhaps improving its strengh.

    What do i need to do? anybody have any recomendations on prefered gears?
    205 GTi T16

    205 CTi

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Have a look in my build thread, there is a list of the ratios I'm using .....



    Chris

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    use the diesel, longer, better suited to your engine. whats it out of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deltone View Post

    I would like to make one "perfect" Box out of the ones listed above and in the process perhaps improving its strengh.

    What do i need to do? anybody have any recomendations on prefered gears?
    Hey you

    Hope you are well

    Attached is a sheet from the work book to 'roll your own'

    Can't get 7 zip to upload 4 U for some reason

    You have a pile of GB's in the unit so a mixiblob of what you have will depend on what you want in the end. If you don't want a buzz saw up and down the Kwinana F " Way carefull on the final drive, it gets seriously annoying at 110. The 'short' BE1 CW & Pinion do make for snappy off the line action though. The mill you have nearly finished putting together will have heaps of grunt in final trim so I'd be inclined for a 'tall 5th'

    Seriously for my PM Adrian - discuss - freight it over let him do it and send it back to WA.

    Cheep no ( as we live in W ait A while land ) but pain free yes. He knows his onions and Miles is in the UK so = unobtaiium..

    Happy hunting

    PM me skinny man

    Ciao

    Fatty
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 205 GTi custom gearbox-be3-prt-scrn.jpg  
    93' 205GTi
    'don't force it son - use a bigger hammer'

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Adrian built mine

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandgroper View Post
    Hey you

    Hope you are well

    Attached is a sheet from the work book to 'roll your own'

    Can't get 7 zip to upload 4 U for some reason

    You have a pile of GB's in the unit so a mixiblob of what you have will depend on what you want in the end. If you don't want a buzz saw up and down the Kwinana F " Way carefull on the final drive, it gets seriously annoying at 110. The 'short' BE1 CW & Pinion do make for snappy off the line action though. The mill you have nearly finished putting together will have heaps of grunt in final trim so I'd be inclined for a 'tall 5th'

    Seriously for my PM Adrian - discuss - freight it over let him do it and send it back to WA.

    Cheep no ( as we live in W ait A while land ) but pain free yes. He knows his onions and Miles is in the UK so = unobtaiium..

    Happy hunting

    PM me skinny man

    Ciao

    Fatty
    BE1/3 makes no difference, you can get the same ratios in each, it all depends on the model they are fitted to.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    diesel gearbox Luca

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    Building a strong box is a good idea but dont aim for or expect to maintian 400nm of torque. My car has 340 @ 3K rpm and I could not possible recommend any more than that - if you boot it too fast it will change across 3 lanes unless you hold the wheel tightly - fun until it sends you into a head-on....
    2002 RS Clio 172 silver
    Superchips MKV1 Golf GTI Edition 35

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 black, 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    BE1/3 makes no difference, you can get the same ratios in each, it all depends on the model they are fitted to.
    Graham


    As I have been appraised on here in the past, thank you for your insight Graham.

    Agreed your correct in your statement but look at his list ( as I did when trying to answer his question in his context ), that’s what I was addressing, HIS question on what to do with what he has in the pile of BE1 /3 GB’s at his disposal. I am not an expert in the multitudes of variations the BE1 / 3 manifested itself in throughout the world which is why I nudged Deltone to talk to Adrian. Your one liner retort helps him in no way at all.

    The 205 GTi S1/S2 are 3.94:1, the S3 are 3.62:1 from my feeble memory and if Deltone has a look at the “ BE3 Series 1 GTi” box he has listed as having he will find it is a BE1 ( S1 can’t be a BE3) . The prize in that box is the crown wheel and pinion. Simply ( I was able to do it on my own so it can’t be that hard ) changing the CW & P from it into the GTi S3 BE3 box is the easiest swap , and will yield pretty good results. He will just need access to a 10 ton press. But that wasn’t his question, he has a pile of G B’s and there is a good bit of picking to be had , the Cit’ BX box is what I’d be peeking in to see what it has. All the early BE casings are pretty much as weak as each other and not until the 306 did they allegedly get stronger – a consideration seeing how much torque will be produced by his mill. Both the BE1 & 3 he has have old sun gears by now and just the same design fault that manifests itself as the weakness in the 5 speed boxes I keep eating in my Fiat X 1/9, when you try and put over 150+ hp atw thru the first cog in that box and you try and launch off the line they play catchy chasy just like the BE boxes and punch out the diff casting when they trip over each other. Deltone is spot on to go a Quafe etc and get rid of them, perhaps a plate diff but I’m not sure a ‘Hot streeter’ would suit. I have never owned a plate diff but only driven a small sample so defer comment to folks like Peter. I only run 2 ATB’s and they cope with the modest power I throw at them, I only eat driveshafts on the Pug with the needles in the spiders that keep turning to dust.

    Okay enough waffle, I guess we look at the list of GB’s Deltone has listed and keep that in mind. We could help him Graham with sourcing a STRONER BE3 GB out of a later 306, the Xantia Turbo was rumoured to have double syncros – yummy yummy got any of those? Deltone would have trouble breaking that, but with the torque he is looking at developing whipping thru the primary shaft he just may break it anyway.

    It still remains my advice that he talk to Owens son and he will have a better understanding of what CW & P ratio and what cogs will suit, The torque is what would worry me, torque breaks boxes and the BE is not a grunt unit IMHO.

    But if you want a pictorial guide on how to change the CW & P yourself Deltone with the pickies of how I did it PM your details.

    To keep me happy ( and more importantly stop confusing folks ) some nomenclature, as the words ‘ short, tall, long diff’ are often used on this Board when describing a crown wheel and pinion ratio.

    Gear cogs live on the primary and secondary shafts, a pinion shaft lives in the cog section of the box carrying a set of gears, the crown wheel bolts to the diff where the pesky little sun gears lurk in thoughts of Hara-kiri.

    So when we say the BE3 ( GTi ) has a ‘long diff’ we mean a 3.62:1 CW&P don’t we?
    Is anyone any wiser or did I waste my time on here again.

    Enter trolls
    93' 205GTi
    'don't force it son - use a bigger hammer'

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Xantia Turbo and V6 are ME/ML. That's ideally what's needed rather than BE3. If you must go BE then why not make it similar as possible to a T16 box? You need to make it wider rather than closer to suit the turbo.

    ie
    1st 3.417
    2nd 1.818
    3rd 1.250
    4th 0.969
    5th 0.767

    cwp 3.933

    You won't need the very short 1st however, as a 205 is heaps lighter. So basically an Mi16 box with a 3.94 cwp. The BX (and Si) box probably has the same ratios.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
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    The early Australian Be3 and BE1 GTi boxes have 3.9 FDs as does the Si so not that hard to come by. In any case if you want a short FD get a 4.06 from an 8 valve 1.9 405.
    What the GTi boxes over have are close ratios.
    To get the wide ratios needed by the engine why not fit an Mi16 box with a 3.9 FD.

    Regarding the BE3/1 ratio thing it gets me going the same as way people talking about carbon tax or carbon pollution when they should be talking about carbon dioxide and of course there is no pollution involved.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandgroper View Post

    As I have been appraised on here in the past, thank you for your insight Graham.

    Agreed your correct in your statement but look at his list ( as I did when trying to answer his question in his context ), that’s what I was addressing, HIS question on what to do with what he has in the pile of BE1 /3 GB’s at his disposal. I am not an expert in the multitudes of variations the BE1 / 3 manifested itself in throughout the world which is why I nudged Deltone to talk to Adrian. Your one liner retort helps him in no way at all.

    The 205 GTi S1/S2 are 3.94:1, the S3 are 3.62:1 from my feeble memory and if Deltone has a look at the “ BE3 Series 1 GTi” box he has listed as having he will find it is a BE1 ( S1 can’t be a BE3) . The prize in that box is the crown wheel and pinion. Simply ( I was able to do it on my own so it can’t be that hard ) changing the CW & P from it into the GTi S3 BE3 box is the easiest swap , and will yield pretty good results. He will just need access to a 10 ton press. But that wasn’t his question, he has a pile of G B’s and there is a good bit of picking to be had , the Cit’ BX box is what I’d be peeking in to see what it has. All the early BE casings are pretty much as weak as each other and not until the 306 did they allegedly get stronger – a consideration seeing how much torque will be produced by his mill. Both the BE1 & 3 he has have old sun gears by now and just the same design fault that manifests itself as the weakness in the 5 speed boxes I keep eating in my Fiat X 1/9, when you try and put over 150+ hp atw thru the first cog in that box and you try and launch off the line they play catchy chasy just like the BE boxes and punch out the diff casting when they trip over each other. Deltone is spot on to go a Quafe etc and get rid of them, perhaps a plate diff but I’m not sure a ‘Hot streeter’ would suit. I have never owned a plate diff but only driven a small sample so defer comment to folks like Peter. I only run 2 ATB’s and they cope with the modest power I throw at them, I only eat driveshafts on the Pug with the needles in the spiders that keep turning to dust.

    Okay enough waffle, I guess we look at the list of GB’s Deltone has listed and keep that in mind. We could help him Graham with sourcing a STRONER BE3 GB out of a later 306, the Xantia Turbo was rumoured to have double syncros – yummy yummy got any of those? Deltone would have trouble breaking that, but with the torque he is looking at developing whipping thru the primary shaft he just may break it anyway.

    It still remains my advice that he talk to Owens son and he will have a better understanding of what CW & P ratio and what cogs will suit, The torque is what would worry me, torque breaks boxes and the BE is not a grunt unit IMHO.

    But if you want a pictorial guide on how to change the CW & P yourself Deltone with the pickies of how I did it PM your details.

    To keep me happy ( and more importantly stop confusing folks ) some nomenclature, as the words ‘ short, tall, long diff’ are often used on this Board when describing a crown wheel and pinion ratio.

    Gear cogs live on the primary and secondary shafts, a pinion shaft lives in the cog section of the box carrying a set of gears, the crown wheel bolts to the diff where the pesky little sun gears lurk in thoughts of Hara-kiri.

    So when we say the BE3 ( GTi ) has a ‘long diff’ we mean a 3.62:1 CW&P don’t we?
    Is anyone any wiser or did I waste my time on here again.

    Enter trolls

    What does the good Captain mean by double synchros??? [as i have one of those boxes you speak of ]
    jr20516v

    Now:
    205 2.0T , 205 [new project 2014 ], Matra Bagheera x2, Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. x2


    Previous: 205 x16, X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2

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    [QUOTE=PeterT;970934]Xantia Turbo and V6 are ME/ML. That's ideally what's needed rather than BE3.

    Hi Peter, i am interested in your comments above as i am just about to discard the ML gearbox from my XU10J2TE conversion in lieu of a revised BE3 box that i am putting together from 3 other boxes.

    Am i doing the wrong thing ? Your comments above have me wondering?
    The ML from my Xantia turbo is a very nice box to drive....smooth and feels so strong....the only problem i can see is the ratios of it are set up for economy and not go power. The distance between 1st and 2nd gears one can fall asleep during the shift.

    I very much doubt that BE1/3 gears are compatible with an ML box.
    I would be interested in your thoughts on any avenues i may not have thought of :}
    jr20516v

    Now:
    205 2.0T , 205 [new project 2014 ], Matra Bagheera x2, Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. x2


    Previous: 205 x16, X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Xantia 2.0T (ML5T)
    1st 3.250
    2nd 1.783
    3rd 1.194
    4th 0.875
    5th 0.702
    cwp 4.478

    If correct, certainly wide, but designed to get a heavy car off the line off boost. Just wind on more boost! You'll never break it.

    The box you really want is the XM Turbo CT. You might find one. I saw someone selling rocking horse poo for $23/tonne the other day.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Xantia 2.0T (ML5T)
    1st 3.250
    2nd 1.783
    3rd 1.194
    4th 0.875
    5th 0.702
    cwp 4.478

    If correct, certainly wide, but designed to get a heavy car off the line off boost. Just wind on more boost! You'll never break it.

    The box you really want is the XM Turbo CT. You might find one. I saw someone selling rocking horse poo for $23/tonne the other day.
    Yes, they are rarish eh LOL
    Actually i thought the XM turbo and the Xantia turbo did have the same gearbox [as they are the same engines basically ]
    The ECU will only handle 1 bar of boost [190-200bhp ] so there is not a lot of winding to do LOL
    So given the choice which would YOU use as the gearbox with the TE lump? BE3 hybrid or ML5?
    jr20516v

    Now:
    205 2.0T , 205 [new project 2014 ], Matra Bagheera x2, Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. x2


    Previous: 205 x16, X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Considering the BE3 should hold together with the relative power and the ML is going to be heavier, I would stick with the BE JR. Im going to be running a Standard BE3 on mine.

    Did you end up fitting the DFZ cam?

    Cam
    My ultimate 205 build 2.2 16v and more..

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92669

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Considering the BE3 should hold together with the relative power and the ML is going to be heavier, I would stick with the BE JR. Im going to be running a Standard BE3 on mine.

    Did you end up fitting the DFZ cam?

    Cam
    Yep, the cam is ready to go in. The plan was to run the hybrid BE3 however Peter's comments above got me thinking so i thought i would ask the question.
    The ML gearbox is such a delight to use....sooooo smoooooth.
    Yes, i wonder how much heavier it would be over the BE3 too..... ive Googled my head off trying to find that out and gave up :}
    jr20516v

    Now:
    205 2.0T , 205 [new project 2014 ], Matra Bagheera x2, Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. x2


    Previous: 205 x16, X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Haha. Yea its a nice box, has a massive diff etc area and big gears. Im not to sure how but I think you have to make up your own gear selection mechanics to operate it... ( unless you get them off the xantia. Ive never seen any so that may not work either...)

    How you going with the wiring? ( hijack! ) Im getting My s16 next week then another 205 arrives to do the turbo conversion on..

    Cam
    My ultimate 205 build 2.2 16v and more..

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92669

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    What's the go with a daggy DFZ cam?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Haha. Yea its a nice box, has a massive diff etc area and big gears. Im not to sure how but I think you have to make up your own gear selection mechanics to operate it... ( unless you get them off the xantia. Ive never seen any so that may not work either...)

    How you going with the wiring? ( hijack! ) Im getting My s16 next week then another 205 arrives to do the turbo conversion on..

    Cam
    Is that my 205, Cam?
    Three weeks is almost up.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr20516v View Post
    What does the good Captain mean by double synchros??? [as i have one of those boxes you speak of ]
    Hey Swain.
    Don’t listen to Peter, ( he speak with forked tongue Tonto – )
    I’ll give you $100 for that scrap gearbox you were going to throw out. It’s just Cit rubbish anyway (cheekey grin ) I can arrange for pick up this weekend if you need to clear out the stash.
    If that didn’t convince you and you have twigged the ML is a stronger box then throw that BE3 at me instead, I’ll toss 50 ringits your way as the P/U will cost more than its worth. (your investigative training tells you it’s true)

    You said it yourself Swain
    Quote Originally Posted by jr20516v
    “ a very nice box to drive....smooth and feels so strong. “
    I seem to remember you have some hands on with cogs so you know what a syncro does for a living so no boring lectures from me we, sat thru enough of that $h!T to kill a horse.

    I have only gotten greasy with transaxles that have single synchromesh rings but double sets exist in newer Hi Po manuals some ricer gear even come with TRIPPLE syncro rings . Evo number whapidy whap or whatever, I didn’t look into it but I know they exist , I drove for a day or so was a Targa prep Evo 8 or something that I was told had triples it and the shift at hi rpm was ‘as smooth as Bro’ ( beached as man ) even though I was ‘on the gas’. That’s what they are good for, the double synchro is to help in matching the gear cog speeds quickly when shifting fast at high RPMs. My understanding is it helps the gears slide together like butter even with big HP and revs and avoids the nasty miss shift at hi RPMs.
    I have also been told that they add to complexity and run counter to the Lee Iacocca principle ( Keep it simple stupid ) and are excluded by some for that reason. Rational goes if you can stir the wooden gear spoon properly and have good gear shift technique you don’t need it. I just nod a lot and say OOOhhhhh AAaahhhh - as it gets all too subjective for my humble tastes ( wallet ) and way above ‘my pay grade’.


    Graham,
    Same page both topics. Without getting into trouble ( oh how naive I am ) the carbon tax (or whatever name we have for it this week) is more about wealth RE distribution by a bunch of (am I allowed to say Commo’s ) than addressing carbon dioxide emissions. Carbon dioxide is NOT a pollutant it’s a normally occurring gas too much cod’s wallop on BOTH sides to get any sense out of anyone for me. Though the Red hair is just sending me subliminal messages as to why my folks left Czechoslovakia in a hurry after someone drove a few tanks around the place. AAArrrggg don't mention the after war war the oldies will go off again about how the country is looking more like the 'Old country' and the old country is now better than the new country ( oh bugger I just gave myself a headache thinking about it )


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    The box you really want is the XM Turbo CT. You might find one. I saw someone selling rocking horse poo for $23/tonne the other day.
    Now there’s a Cit I could like to own. The ships Provedore had one in the 90’s and the drive from Penang to KL and back was an absolute blast. I thought I was in a spaceship, odd styling in a way that you know it’s a Citroen , Marty McFly can keep the Delorean give me an XM Turbo.


    So I seem to pick out of this thread that Deltone should be pulling the Cit’ BX BE3 out and fiddle with that at a minimum or start looking over the top of his pile of BE’s at an ME/ML box and go WIDE.

    We still don’t know what he wants though a sprint to the next traffic lights bunny or a ‘rounded ‘ cruiser that won’t give him a head ache after an hour or more with 3.8k RPMs in 5th down the F' Way. I have never enjoyed looooooong journeys at high speed in the 205 and I have 4 BE3 boxes with only one in stock trim. But a blat through the twisties or a poke around town always makes me grin in the Pug so I know which way I’d be leaning.

    ‘Hey you’ are you still fixing Coffee Machines? I’m in need of a good one – what’s the go?



    Sandgroper
    93' 205GTi
    'don't force it son - use a bigger hammer'

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Is that my 205, Cam?
    Three weeks is almost up.
    Graham
    Yep. Should be there next week Graham

    Cam

    Pete, the DFZ cam is a bit of a mod for the turbo motors..strange hey..
    My ultimate 205 build 2.2 16v and more..

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92669

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Yep. Should be there next week Graham

    Cam

    Pete, the DFZ cam is a bit of a mod for the turbo motors..strange hey..
    Look forward to seeing you.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post

    Pete, the DFZ cam is a bit of a mod for the turbo motors..strange hey..
    Are sure they didn't mean DKZ? If you were going to the trouble of changing a cam in an 8V there's a lot more better options than a DFZ cam.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Pete. Ill double check. If you have a recipie im keen to know...

    Cam

    PS. Pat go the 6 going. Went for a spin. Hes very keen to have it tuned and sorted out. Eventually got it to idle. Would you recommend anyone to tune it thats done your engines in the past?

    Cam
    My ultimate 205 build 2.2 16v and more..

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92669

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