Fuel saving device
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Fuel saving device

    I know that some people think that many so-called fuel saving devices don't actually work, but I just want to get further opinion on this particular one.
    I have seen a device which fits fits on top of the carby and is basically a fan which spins freely on tiny bearings.

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    Surely this will promote fuel mixing and not inhibit air/fuel flow as much as a fixed fan blade setup......?????
    If you turn a full a drink bottle upside down and swirl it, it will empty a lot faster than if you just upend it....
    Surely it will make SOME difference ?

    My car is a 505.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    try it if it's cheap and let us know how it goes

    as far as i have worked out over the years things like hyclones, tin canisters () and the like are just a waste of time, money and effort

    you want better economy try water injection, i can tell you from experience that it works and it will cost you around $2
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  3. #3
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    Default Interesting

    I wonder if its because the air is getting in faster that the fluid is getting out faster ,possibly fluid which is spinning will allow bubbles to move up quicker rather than glug glug ,there was some feed back on these a while back ,dont know pre or post crash PUGS

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I'm with pugrambo - surely anything that affects the airflow through any inlet manifold that has any value and not been adopted by any manufacturer, given their intended useage for the engine, is of no value.

    If it was, I have no doubt that the OEM would have fitted it from new in subseqent motors.

    Fuel is denser than air, and any device that spins the fuel / air mixture will only centrifuge the fuel droplets from the inlet mixture to the surface of the inlet duct, resulting in incomplete mixture, increased fuel useage and incomplete combustion. Engine designers take a lot of care to ensure their motors are as efficient as possible, or loose sales to more competitive opponents.

    Water - water / methanol injection has been successfully used in many early motors, dunno about recently. Same theory as nitrous oxide, that of adding more oxygen into the combustion process, but with the problem of valve stem / bore corrosion if not used continuously.

    Regards,

    fento

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    Quote Originally Posted by fento View Post
    Same theory as nitrous oxide, that of adding more oxygen into the combustion process, but with the problem of valve stem / bore corrosion if not used continuously.
    Whilst considered an 'old timers' science by some, water injection has had a major renaissance over the last few years as mapable electronic controls and proper fail safes make the metering more exact and the system more reliable.

    Water injection is now used on lots of highly tuned turbo/super charged cars as a way reducing combustion temperatures and adding resistance to detonation.

    With modern high pressure systems I have not heard of any problems with corrosion of the cylinder bore or valve stem as most electronic systems only inject water under high loads or boost where it vaporizes in the combustion chamber.

    Corrosion could be an issue with the older 'suction' style systems as they tended to suck in lots of unregulated water at idle and high vacuum (low engine loads) and could leave un-vaporized water in the inlet manifold and combustion chamber at shutdown.

    One known side effect of WI is that the internals of the engine usually look like they have just been assembled, even after 1000's of k's because no carbon builds up.

    It should be noted that if too much water is injected, wash down of the bores can occur which may accelerate engine wear - but - you'd have to dump in far to much water than ideally needed (or not properly atomize it before it is ingested) for that to occur as water and oil are generally not
    miscible in the amounts concerned.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Water-methanol injection was used in aircraft engines during WW2 to provide more power, with success. Water injection (home made) was used after the war to prevent pinging on low octane fuels and right through the sixties. The sixties also spawned large numbers of inventions guaranteed to save you fuel, double your horsepower, increase your top speed etc. Some were weird, some looked wonderful but they all had one thing in common! An immeasurable effect on the performance of your vehicle! And still the inventions came! Anyone remember Brock's Energy Polarizer?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  7. #7
    COL
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    Default Fuel Saving Device

    Hi All

    The best fuel saving device is the person behind the wheel.
    Fuel consumption depends entirely on how you drive the car, also how much un-necassary stuff you carry in the car and also roof racks.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fento View Post
    Water - water / methanol injection has been successfully used in many early motors, dunno about recently. Same theory as nitrous oxide, that of adding more oxygen into the combustion process, but with the problem of valve stem / bore corrosion if not used continuously.

    Regards,

    fento
    I always thought water injection fell into one of those weird categories where we dont fully understand all the details of what and how it does what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Water-methanol injection was used in aircraft engines during WW2 to provide more power, with success.
    Or to get the poor suckers with not enough fuel to fly home a little close to their own line by leaning out and flying through heavy clouds.
    Jo

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi All

    The best fuel saving device is the person behind the wheel.
    Fuel consumption depends entirely on how you drive the car, also how much un-necassary stuff you carry in the car and also roof racks.
    You didn't mention tyre pressures, wheel alignment, dragging brakes, and engine tune but generally I'd say you were on the right track!

    Following is an informative article about Water Injection that even mentions Renaults!

    http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
    Last edited by Kim Luck; 22nd June 2011 at 11:10 PM.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    lets put it another way

    who has tried any form of fuel saving device and what were the results

    i have tried water injection and by using it being able to advance the timing = increased power and of course the prolonged flame front on combustion

    i for one have never seen any conclusive proof of any of the hyclone's, tin canisters, magnets and so on having any effect towards saving fuel
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

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    1 x secret project

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Default Fuel Economy!!

    If you want an older motor to be more fuel efficient, get rid of the carb and go fuel injection. TBI single point and a decent spark management will work better that a carb and dissy.

    Take That
    Ray geckoeng

    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayitwasme View Post
    I know that some people think that many so-called fuel saving devices don't actually work, but I just want to get further opinion on this particular one.
    I have seen a device which fits fits on top of the carby and is basically a fan which spins freely on tiny bearings.

    ...
    My car is a 505.
    If the fan were driven by something other than the air being sucked past it eg an electric motor, then you would have a super charger. However unless the thing could spin at very high revs, it would slow the air intake rather thgan enhance iit...

    Cheers

    Alec

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I always thought water injection fell into one of those weird categories where we dont fully understand all the details of what and how it does what it does.


    Or to get the poor suckers with not enough fuel to fly home a little close to their own line by leaning out and flying through heavy clouds.
    Jo
    Water injection is not the black art some would have us believe. It is best to think of water injection not as a power producing or fuel saving device, but as a facilitator of those functions.

    Water injection works in a very similar way to increasing the octane rating of the fuel.

    The water absorbs heat and reduces the auto-ignition point of the air fuel mixture - often to such a magnitude that far greater boost levels (resulting in higher power) can be reliably run.

    By staving off detonation, more advance and higher compression ratios can be run.

    Up until the last 10 or so years, there was the attitude that water injection was just a poor substitute for an intercooler, but now there is an increasing trend towards using both.

    FWIW, the most commonly brought up reference to Water Injection is the story that WW2(supercharged) P51 Mustangs could produce up to 70% more power for short periods with water injection and higher boost (it was commonly known as War Emergency Power - WEP).

    I have also read stories that state the throttle was fitted with a snap wire and if tripped by engaging WEP, the engine had to be rebuilt upon landing

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi All

    The best fuel saving device is the person behind the wheel.
    Fuel consumption depends entirely on how you drive the car, also how much un-necassary stuff you carry in the car and also roof racks.
    Amen!

    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    If the fan were driven by something other than the air being sucked past it eg an electric motor, then you would have a super charger. However unless the thing could spin at very high revs, it would slow the air intake rather thgan enhance iit...

    Cheers

    Alec
    Yes.


    ...Peugeot exploited centrifugal airflow on the 505 pre air-filter filter. Dyson has since made a good business of exploiting the same theory for their vacuum cleaners. If Peugeot has already explored this option as an air cleaning device, chances are they have also explored its fuel economy potential.

    At any rate, once the air/fuel mixture has entered the carburettor, it enters the inlet manifold and then is distributed to the cylinders. Whilst flow can have an effect on the combustion in each cylinder, it is difficult to envision that swirling pre-carburettor is likely to have much effect on the atomisation of fuel in air once it hits the combustion chamber... There would be a better chance of effect if a similar swirling device were to be fitted at the combustion chamber inlet. But then (as alluded to earlier) chances are that the fuel would be thrown to the walls and the combustion would be incomplete and very inefficient

    Sorry to be such a downer. I know how attractive these ideas seem. Twelve months ago I would have thought they sounded like a good idea. I'm slowly learning...


    Binky.
    Last edited by Binky; 23rd June 2011 at 02:45 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default The mystery? Why do people buy them !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Water-methanol injection was used in aircraft engines during WW2 to provide more power, with success. Water injection (home made) was used after the war to prevent pinging on low octane fuels and right through the sixties. The sixties also spawned large numbers of inventions guaranteed to save you fuel, double your horsepower, increase your top speed etc. Some were weird, some looked wonderful but they all had one thing in common! An immeasurable effect on the performance of your vehicle! And still the inventions came! Anyone remember Brock's Energy Polarizer?
    Hi,
    Ricardo did a lot of research during WW2 on ways to increase power and prevent detonation in aircraft engines. This included water addition etc. It is all documented in books from the old days. It works. How that translates to todays cars is a matter of looking at the principles and how they fit The fuel was also crap in the old days

    Ricardo, for those unfamilar, was a famous engine designer in England, and designed a lot of the older combustion chambers which were used by most manufacturers for many years. Both petrol and diesel. His firm still currently does consulting to engine manufacturers.

    Try this site for fuel saving opinions
    http://www.fuelsaving.info/debunk.htm
    Jaahn

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