Replacing a camshaft in a pushrod 504 engine
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    Default Replacing a camshaft in a pushrod 504 engine

    I have a 504 with a 504/505 pushrod with a slightly modified camshaft

    Since this overhaul, idling has always been lumpy and has basically been below my expectations. The carb settings have been fiddled with many times without satistfaction. In hindsight I would simply have used the stock camshaft...however....

    My question is - what is the procedure to replace a camshaft in an engine? Since I'd need to pay for the procedure, I'm just wondering how difficult/costly the task is. - for example does the head need to be removed? I assume that maybe radiators removed, pushrods/rockers removed.and maybe the camshaft can somehow be pulled out from the front of the engine??....

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    I'd be interested in the sequence of procedures needed to get an idea of the costs

    Cheers
    Last edited by BarryC; 16th June 2011 at 04:28 PM. Reason: error

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    Barry, I have a 505 GR with a 65/25 cam and the idle is as smooth as, and our rally car has a 70/30 cam and it has no idle problems either. It sounds like your cam timing is out.
    To replace the cam is head off, cam followers out, distributor out, fuel pump off . I have never tried to do one in the car, but I would think that with the radiator and grill out it would be possible. Car with Aircon could be a problem.
    cheers Pete

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryC View Post
    I have a 504 with a 504/505 pushrod with a slightly modified camshaft

    Since this overhaul, idling has always been lumpy and has basically been below my expectations. The carb settings have been fiddled with many times without satistfaction. In hindsight I would simply have used the stock camshaft...however....

    My question is - what is the procedure to replace a camshaft in an engine? Since I'd need to pay for the procedure, I'm just wondering how difficult/costly the task is. - for example does the head need to be removed? I assume that maybe radiators removed, valves/rockers removed.and maybe the camshaft can somehow be pulled out from the front of the engine??....

    I'd be interested in the sequence of procedures needed to get an idea of the costs



    Cheers
    Hi Barry,

    Remove the radiator(possibly the grille as well to allow cam shaft withdrawal

    Undo throttle cable, fuel line and wiring cyl heads sensors

    Remove plug leads

    Remove fan belt & tensioner bracket

    Disconnect exhaust engine pipe at manifold and wriggle clear

    Remove the rocker cover & air filter

    Remove oil line at rear of head

    Undo head studs

    Remove tappet gear

    Remove push rods

    Pull the head off by rotating not lifting

    Remove the cam followers

    Remove the bottom pulley

    Remove the timing cover

    Remove the timing chain tensioner

    Remove the three cam sprocket bolts

    Lift timing chain and sprocket clear

    Undo the tab that holds the camshaft in

    Withdraw the cam shaft


    Personally, I prefer to pull the engine out which is an extra 30 minute overhead but then working on the engine in the stand is sooo much easier and faster.

    Just as aside, if the cam is non standard. When it is fitted it must "dialled in" (timed to crankshaft with a dial indicator gauge)and not timed by the standard Peugeot markings.

    Could the cam be mistimed? Who was the cam reground by ? Wade have a very specific procedure.

    EDIT: I have a Wade 112 grind in 1800 504 engine. Whilst the performance is good the idle is pretty crappy at recommended RPM and the recommended valve clearance 14 thou inlet and exhaust makes for rattly tappets. I just bumped the idle to 900rpm and lived with it. If doing the rebuild again I'd probably use a standard cam.

    cheers



    Robert
    Last edited by robmac; 16th June 2011 at 04:56 PM.

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    I'm a great believer in trying the simple things first. What else (apart from the carby) could be causing a lumpy idle ? Worn timing gear ? Try shining a timing light on the crank. If the little white mark (which you can paint in the little groove of the crank timing mark ) appears wide, or to wander back and forth, then your timing gear MAY be worn. Do you have a timing chain rattle ?

    Robmac, if the cam had not been "dialled in" properly, would this cause a lumpy idle ?
    I assume he have to take off the timing cover to do this properly ?? And what exactly is involved in doing it ?
    Last edited by Beano; 16th June 2011 at 06:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post

    Robmac, if the cam had not been "dialled in" properly, would this cause a lumpy idle ?
    I assume he have to take off the timing cover to do this properly ?? And what exactly is involved in doing it ?

    Wade's instructions with the cam. The installation instructions are at the very end.

    Procedure being performed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Replacing a camshaft in a pushrod 504 engine-assemble-29.jpg  
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    Robmac,

    Remove. Distributor.
    .. .. .. .. Distributor/oil pump drive shaft.
    .. .. .. .. Fuel pump and pin from block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Robmac,

    Remove. Distributor.
    .. .. .. .. Distributor/oil pump drive shaft.
    .. .. .. .. Fuel pump and pin from block.
    Whoops, thanks WB.

    I'm thinking the sump may need to come off to refit/ remove the oil pump drive shaft??

    In which case it's an engine out & probably a engine rebuild gasket kit ?

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    You don't need to take the head off. There is a way around it.

    Remove the engine.
    Take the distributor, drive cog and oil pump drive out.
    Take off the rocker cover.
    Release tappets all the way, so you have at least 12mm play in them, more if you have a really lumpy camshaft.
    Remove front pulley and timing cover.
    Remove timing chain, sprocket and camshaft retainer.
    Turn the engine upside-down and rotate the camshaft at least one whole revolution.
    Remove camshaft.

    To quote any procedure in any Hayne's manual: Installation is the reversal of removal.
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    Default 504 cam..

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    You don't need to take the head off. There is a way around it.

    Remove the engine.
    Take the distributor, drive cog and oil pump drive out.
    Take off the rocker cover.
    Release tappets all the way, so you have at least 12mm play in them, more if you have a really lumpy camshaft.
    Remove front pulley and timing cover.
    Remove timing chain, sprocket and camshaft retainer.
    Turn the engine upside-down and rotate the camshaft at least one whole revolution.
    Remove camshaft.

    To quote any procedure in any Hayne's manual: Installation is the reversal of removal.

    Demannu,
    We are all now saying. " why didn't we think of that !"
    Top marks.


    Robmac,
    Your picture shows the dial gauge set up on an exhaust lobe ? Am I missing something.

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    Default Oops what a mess

    I you are going to try the engine upside down method dont forget to drain the oil out of the motor
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Demannu,
    .....Robmac,
    Your picture shows the dial gauge set up on an exhaust lobe ? Am I missing something.
    Don't think so. Looks very like the rear most cam follower which Inet1 on an XN engine according to me.

    For the doubters an image is enclosed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Replacing a camshaft in a pushrod 504 engine-head.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Whoops, thanks WB.

    I'm thinking the sump may need to come off to refit/ remove the oil pump drive shaft??

    In which case it's an engine out & probably a engine rebuild gasket kit ?
    No but make sure the dissy is sitting right down after replacement.
    It is possible for the dissy to work and the engine to run but the oil pump drive shaft not be sitting in the pump. No oil pressure is the result.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by 27of85 View Post
    I you are going to try the engine upside down method dont forget to drain the oil out of the motor
    And to take it out of the car first
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    And to take it out of the car first
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    And to take it out of the car first
    What's wrong with turning the car upside down?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    What's wrong with turning the car upside down?
    Nothing at all. Except all of your loose change falls out of the ash tray
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    Default cam...?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Don't think so. Looks very like the rear most cam follower which Inet1 on an XN engine according to me.

    For the doubters an image is enclosed.

    Woops!

    Sorry rob, all doubt removed. For someone who has owned Peugeots since the earth last cooled.



    Further to the oil pump/dist drive shaft. Replacing can be a PIA in order to get the shaft to engage in order to have the drive gear point the right way to align the distributor.
    I have used a long rod with a notch cut in the end to engage the oil pump, you will align it eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Woops!

    Sorry rob, all doubt removed. For someone who has owned Peugeots since the earth last cooled.



    Further to the oil pump/dist drive shaft. Replacing can be a PIA in order to get the shaft to engage in order to have the drive gear point the right way to align the distributor.
    I have used a long rod with a notch cut in the end to engage the oil pump, you will align it eventually.
    Hi Wildy,

    That makes it one all.

    Having another look at the original image, it's obvious with hindsight. Rearmost cylinder, cam follower closest to inlet side. Must be no 1 inlet!

    An easy way to remember, instead of looking at tappet gear as I usually do when timing the cam.

    So I've learnt something, even if it seems obvious.

    cheers

    Rob

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    Rather than remove the engine and turn it upside down, would it be possible to simply hold up the cam followers with some sort of arrangement involving magnets ? Of course, you would not want even one follower to fall down, or you'd then have one rattling around in the camshaft gallery........or would you ? They're fairly tall, and the cam gallery is not THAT high, is it ?
    Would the follower then be able to be pulled up again with the magnet ?

    BTW, let's all not forget that the original problem is just a lumpy idle, the cause of which is as yet undiagnosed.....and we've already got the poor bugger taking out his engine and camshaft out !
    Last edited by Beano; 19th June 2011 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Rather than remove the engine and turn it upside down, would it be possible to simply hold up the cam followers with some sort of arrangement involving magnets ? Of course, you would not want even one follower to fall down, or you'd then have one rattling around in the camshaft gallery........or would you ? They're fairly tall, and the cam gallery is not THAT high, is it ?
    Would the follower then be able to be pulled up again with the magnet ?
    I've often wondered the same thing but haven't had the time to test it. I might have a play with a spare block I have and post the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    BTW, let's all not forget that the original problem is just a lumpy idle, the cause of which is as yet undiagnosed.....and we've already got the poor bugger taking out his engine and camshaft out !
    But isn't that the AF way. Suggesting an engine rebuild to someone with a noisy diff.

    Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    But isn't that the AF way. Suggesting an engine rebuild to someone with a noisy diff.
    A noisy diff calls for a suspension overhaul, not engine rebuild... You are thinking of Japanese cars, it must be all that time spent in the Evo!

    Back on the topic, I agree with Pete: even with big cams we don't have much of a lumpy idle. I would look for other reasons before tackling a cam change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    A noisy diff calls for a suspension overhaul, not engine rebuild... You are thinking of Japanese cars, it must be all that time spent in the Evo!

    Back on the topic, I agree with Pete: even with big cams we don't have much of a lumpy idle. I would look for other reasons before tackling a cam change.
    In my opinion it sounds like the cam isn't properly timed. Sometimes you can't just bolt in a new cam without having to do a bit of timing. Or maybe it's a tooth out. A dial gauge will solve the mystery.

    An adjustable cam sprocket makes this more precise, but for some cams putting a 203 sprocket in changes it enough.

    But first check the cam timing. If you don't have the specs I'm sure I have them here somewhere.

    Matt
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    Default Pushrod cam change

    Lots of interesting ideas here. But actually you shouldn't have to turn the car completely upside down, only tipped to to 46 degrees , up on the passenger's side !! That's if the slant of the motor is really 45 degs, and I've never measured it. Or maybe the followers could made to rise up by suction, having removed the pushrods by the Demannu method. If you made up some sort of 8 branch manifold with plastic bits and with some ingenuity reduced pressure in a connected remote vessel. Remember that science experiment where the can crushes down with air pressure, having removed the air by boiling water in it? That might be going a bit far. There must be easier ways to produce a bit of solid suction, so atmospheric pressure does the work for you. . . . Jon Hardy
    Currently own '69 404, '72 504 (V6), '72 504 cpe 4cyl (unrest), '74? 504 ti x2, '76 504 auto, '76 504 ti on gas, '80 604SL '81 505(ti) ba10/5 '83 505 (ti) ba7/5 fam,
    '84 505 Sti ba7/5, '86 505 Sli ba7/4 fam (project), 405GRI auto. Too many....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Woops!

    Sorry rob, all doubt removed. For someone who has owned Peugeots since the earth last cooled.



    Further to the oil pump/dist drive shaft. Replacing can be a PIA in order to get the shaft to engage in order to have the drive gear point the right way to align the distributor.
    I have used a long rod with a notch cut in the end to engage the oil pump, you will align it eventually.

    what's the importance of aligning the drive gear this way or another, and why is there a different alignment between 2.0 and 1.8 engines, as long as you point the rotor to #1 port on the cap at end of compression stroke at tdc?
    the only reason i can think about is in order to leave place for the vacuum capsule, is it so?

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    Not critical for a carburettor engine but you have to get it right on a Ti due to the small amount of space between the inlet runners for the vacuum capsule. In the Ti you also need a distributor with drive dog in a different spot, many Tis nowadays have been fitted by mistake with a carby distributor and are mistimed because of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    what's the importance of aligning the drive gear this way or another, and why is there a different alignment between 2.0 and 1.8 engines, as long as you point the rotor to #1 port on the cap at end of compression stroke at tdc?
    the only reason i can think about is in order to leave place for the vacuum capsule, is it so?

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