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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Default xu head bolts

    does anyone know what the thread is on the xu head bolts? probley should mention they are the torx type bolts.

    also what sort of preparation should the tapped holes in the block be given, if any, to prepare for clamping down a refurbed head?

    on cast iron blocks i have always tried to run a tap down the holes just to clean them out, not sure if this is a good idea with alloy? would need a pretty long tap!

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    Last edited by djvu205; 16th May 2011 at 07:34 PM. Reason: extra info

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think they are 11x.5 metric threads (not sure about pitch though).

    There are taps meant for cleaning threads, not cutting them. If you can't get one, use an old bolt with good clean thread. I use the dremel to cut a few flues around the bolt such that the thread ends up looking like a tap. Clean burrs, and you're ready to go.

    Kerosene out of a high pressure washing gun (compressed air) can dislodge pretty much everything, or use a syringe with a silicone tube and a long metal piece of pipe of the right size (I use bits of brake line), to reach bottom of hole.

    When using taps in deep holes I found that a 3/8 socket extension bar fits perfectly on the square end of a M11 tap and in the hole in the block. You should be able to find one long enough. This experience comes from R12/17G engine blocks though.
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    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    took a bolt onto bolt place today and he couldnt seem to establish what thread it was, but he didnt try hard and i have a feeling he didnt care much when i told him what it was off. the only comment he made was that he seemed to think it was imperial?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Bolt places don't sell automotive stuff, nor do they know anything about it.

    It's easy to measure bolts.

    Take a caliper, measure across the threads. That'll give you the diameter.

    Take a bunch of bolts of known pitch, match thread pitch between them until you find one that doesn't leave any gaps, and that's your pitch. Don't have a bunch of bolts of known pitch? Visit your nearest Bunnings or similar, and you don't even have to buy the bolts, just take your bolt with you and measure in store. They have callipers you can borrow too.

    This suggestion is based on the assumption that you don't have proper tools. You can go to a hardware store and buy a thread pitch gauge, that'll clarify things.

    You can find on the net the info you need too, or in the car's manual.

    Or you can believe me they are M11x1 (I have measured one right now). My engine is a DKZ out of an early 205 GTI (xu9 engine)
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Or you can believe me they are M11x1 (I have measured one right now).
    This is where the internet can be dangerous! They are definitely M11x1.5mm in all XU9 blocks. Buy a "plug" or "bottoming" tap. To get down deep, I made a T spanner from 8mm rod and welded a small 1/4" drive socket upside down to the bar. Another brand of tap may not have a 1/4" square drive however. Use kerosene as the lubricant.

    Lee Bros., Parramatta or Graham McDonald Services, Girraween sell the taps.

    XU10 blocks are M12x1.5mm

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hmm. I'll measure again.

    You are right. They are 11x1.5. My eyes are getting old. Apologies.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    If you just want to clean the bolt holes in the block, use a cutting disc in a small angle grinder and grind a "v" slot down one of your used bolts and use it like a tap. That way you know the thread is right. (The slot allows the gunk caught in the thread to clear). Don't try and use this to 'repair' a dodgy thread though - for that you need a real tap.

    Peter is right though they're 11x1.5, specified on the box of a new set I have here.

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    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    i already did the home made thread cleaner trick last night with an old bolt. i was just curious as to what the actual thread was. thanks for the replies guys. i will need to know the thread size when purchasing helicoils after i try and pull it up!

    is there an easier process of tightening than whats specified in the hanyes manual

    i dont have it on me but it said some thing like

    stage 1 - 44 ft/lb
    stage 2 - 20ft/lb (after slackening)?
    stage 3 - 300 degrees

    so does that mean you tighten to 44 ft/lb then undo them tighten to 20ft/lb
    then rotate 300 degrees from that position?

    i would have thought that tightening and loosening would be the best recipe for stuffing the thread? most engines i built in past bolts were tightened progressively and even nipped up after a run.

    can xu engines be tightened up a similar way to what i mentioned above and if so what would be an ideal final figures be?

    for eg

    stage 1 - 44 ft/lb
    stage 2 - 66 ft/lb ?
    stage 3 - 88 ft/lb ?
    Last edited by djvu205; 17th May 2011 at 07:03 PM. Reason: fix typo

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Bolt places don't sell automotive stuff, nor do they know anything about it.
    My local engineering shop (Beaumont's) sells everything, or at least they have risen to every challenge i've presented .

    They have dozens of thread gauges and a very patient technician who takes the time to get it spot on.

    What cracks me up is when they go to all that effort for something weird like koni shock nuts, and when the minimum fee of $2 is not reached they feel bad having to ask $2 after giving me 10 minutes service time.

    Jo

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    My local engineering shop (Beaumont's) sells everything, or at least they have risen to every challenge i've presented .

    They have dozens of thread gauges and a very patient technician who takes the time to get it spot on.

    What cracks me up is when they go to all that effort for something weird like koni shock nuts, and when the minimum fee of $2 is not reached they feel bad having to ask $2 after giving me 10 minutes service time.

    Jo
    You're lucky to have such a business next door.
    Or they're not running a profit.
    Or don't care.

    And then you won't be so lucky when they go out of business.

    My experience is all I can testify for, Jo.

    Ask them if they have Allen head M7x1 bolts (20mm shank at least) in any grade (4.8 upwards)
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post

    Ask them if they have Allen head M7x1 bolts (20mm shank at least) in any grade (4.8 upwards)
    They're called a socket headed cap screw.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    They're called a socket headed cap screw.
    Not everybody is familiar with that name (nut and bolt people are, but not all of them either).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Default Head bolts !#$%

    Quote Originally Posted by djvu205 View Post
    is there an easier process of tightening than whats specified in the hanyes manual
    i dont have it on me but it said some thing like
    stage 1 - 44 ft/lb
    stage 2 - 20ft/lb (after slackening)?
    stage 3 - 300 degrees
    so does that mean you tighten to 44 ft/lb then undo them tighten to 20ft/lb
    then rotate 300 degrees from that position?
    i would have thought that tightening and loosening would be the best recipe for stuffing the thread? most engines i built in past bolts were tightened progressively and even nipped up after a run.
    can xu engines be tightened up a similar way to what i mentioned above and if so what would be an ideal final figures be?
    for eg
    stage 1 - 44 ft/lb
    stage 2 - 66 ft/lb ?
    stage 3 - 88 ft/lb ?
    Hi
    Why reinvent the wheel. The manufacturers spend time trying things and then recommending a suitable method to give the best results. Why not just do it???

    The 'new' cars all have stretch bolts that go to yield in the last part of the tightening. This is the angle tightening part. This method gives a very uniform force so the clamping forces are very even and correct. Much better than the 'old' way of increasing torque settings. Thats why all manufacturers use it now. You could go back to the old ways but you would probably not get the head well tightened down evenly. Why bother?

    Sometimes the recommendation is to replace the bolts, sometimes measure them to ensure they are not over stretched but generally they can be reused OK. It is because the bolts are made of softer more ductile steel that they need to have the fancy head shapes to ensure they do not strip under the torques required.
    jaahn

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    Why reinvent the wheel. The manufacturers spend time trying things and then recommending a suitable method to give the best results. Why not just do it???

    The 'new' cars all have stretch bolts that go to yield in the last part of the tightening. This is the angle tightening part. This method gives a very uniform force so the clamping forces are very even and correct. Much better than the 'old' way of increasing torque settings. Thats why all manufacturers use it now. You could go back to the old ways but you would probably not get the head well tightened down evenly. Why bother?

    Sometimes the recommendation is to replace the bolts, sometimes measure them to ensure they are not over stretched but generally they can be reused OK. It is because the bolts are made of softer more ductile steel that they need to have the fancy head shapes to ensure they do not strip under the torques required.
    jaahn
    From what I understand the OP is intending use Grade5 cap screws to replace the original TTY bolts.

    This is possibly because the engine is modified or for cost reasons or both.

    Standard head bolts , TTY, need to replaced every time the head comes off whereas a Graded cap screw doesn't

    It think it's commonsense to use a tried and proven method instead of the TTY. You can still tighten a Grade5 bolt by angle or progressive torque. I'd back a hex key for grip against a torx anytime, especially with the greater depth of grip.


    Peter T - grade 5 /11mm is rated to approx 55 lb/ft ? Am I looking at the wrong charts or do you have reason? Stretch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    From what I understand the OP is intending use Grade5 cap screws to replace the original TTY bolts.

    This is possibly because the engine is modified or for cost reasons or both.

    Standard head bolts , TTY, need to replaced every time the head comes off whereas a Graded cap screw doesn't

    It think it's commonsense to use a tried and proven method instead of the TTY. You can still tighten a Grade5 bolt by angle or progressive torque. I'd back a hex key for grip against a torx anytime, especially with the greater depth of grip.


    Peter T - grade 5 /11mm is rated to approx 55 lb/ft ? Am I looking at the wrong charts or do you have reason? Stretch?

    I'm not sure I get the question being asked.

    Who/what is OP?

    If you could buy an M11x1.5 bolt that long it would cost a fortune. A bag of ten new TTY bolts is only approx. $70 from EAI. One M10x1.5 x 200 long cap screw is approx. $60 from memory.

    I really don't understand where this thread is heading. Tap the holes, buy new TTY bolts and tension as per the specs. If you put moly grease on the threads and under the heads/spacers, the bolts will pull easily around to 300 deg. on the third stage. Anything less is a bodge and usually leads to coolant seepage.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I'm not sure I get the question being asked.

    Who/what is OP?

    If you could buy an M11x1.5 bolt that long it would cost a fortune. A bag of ten new TTY bolts is only approx. $70 from EAI. One M10x1.5 x 200 long cap screw is approx. $60 from memory.

    I really don't understand where this thread is heading. Tap the holes, buy new TTY bolts and tension as per the specs. If you put moly grease on the threads and under the heads/spacers, the bolts will pull easily around to 300 deg. on the third stage. Anything less is a bodge and usually leads to coolant seepage.
    OK so I've go the bull by the horns

    When cap screws were mentioned I got it into my mind that it was a suggested replacement, especially when grades were mentioned.???

    I've read back and seen you were talking about availability, M7 X1 , I really got thing mixed up.

    Thanks for clearing it up.....

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I found this on the almighty web.

    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PUG2058V.htm

    scroll down the page a bit.

    Having pulled the head off an xu engine recently, I have the feeling they are way overtightened. Not sure why the need for such extremes, especially as the engines are not high compression. Perhaps this could be a reason why the blocks crack? (mine was cracked all the way around to the last two bolts at the timing end, exactly under the casting where the bolts thread in).

    I think this is insane but I'll check further.

    OP is original poster?

    By the way, after you cleaned the threads, clean the holes too. If you have any crap at the bottom you have a good chance of cracking the block especially with the insane torque Peugeot recommend. Use the syringe trick and you'll be surprised how much crap will come out. I squirt kerosene in until it comes out clean.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    wasnt trying to re-invent the wheel just being paranoid of stripping the threads in the block. i was always shown by my father when doing anything up be it a screw in wood or a bolt in metal or what ever, not to mess around with it too much, just put it in, do it up and leave it. screwing things in and out can stuff threads easily especially in alloy. i have tried tapping holes in alloy on a few occasions and believe me you need to be carefull.

    dont know myself why the m7 grade whatever socket head cap screws got a mention and stuffed up the thread.

    anyway its all pulled down and only one bolt at the rear felt suspect on the final 300 degree rotation so i stopped and will hope that its ok? i got about 180 degrees out of it.

    hence thats why i wanted to know if there is another way for torqing it down as i have no idea how much force that bolt is applying, other than more than 20ft/lb and some more? i know its not ideal but i am not pulling engine out at this stage to fix it unless i have to.
    Last edited by djvu205; 18th May 2011 at 08:12 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default that bolt

    the sus one wasnt the drivers side rear ,the one with the spacer under it ,as failure to fit the spacer puts the bolt into the pump housing ,not good ,hope iv got the right engine and youv fitted the spacer .PUGS

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    no its not the one with spacer, its on other side at back. standing at front it is on rh back about 2nd one in.

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    1000+ Posts stuartb's Avatar
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    you can buy the proper new stretch bolts for about $6 each from EAI.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    i was quoted $38 + through carravelle. bolts arent the issue i think the blocks get worn in the thread or go soft from overheating which is usually associated with the blown head gasket.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts stuartb's Avatar
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    yeh alloy blocks...look how many 306s for sale on ebay have blown head gaskets....thought of helicoiling it out?...I had 2 snap off taking the head off a 306 once...end of motor as more trouble than it was worth. Alloy and steel crystalise together over the years which is the problem

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    im only patching it at this stage to see how the car goes and so i can move it from a to b. i have two other blocks and various heads out of the car which im currrently rebuilding. then one rainy day i can swap motors over. its worth rebuilding as the car only has 129000kms on it and from what i can see is the original motor. i think it all started when previous owner changed a heater hose then somehow the head gasket blew. its clean as a whistle inside no corosion

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I have an Mi16 which was rebuilt 4 yrs/50000Km ago. It was a very sad block that an idiot had touched. It has 4 helicoils for the headbolts and two for mains bolts and is still going strong. Certainly don't be afraid of using them if you strip a hole. Of course you'll partially blow a set of head bolts finding out!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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