thoughts on my 205 8v engine
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Default thoughts on my 205 8v engine

    Hi all,

    I have a S 1.5 205 8v, still reasonably fresh (~<30k), decked, cam, 3 cut seats, 10.5 compression.

    Unfortunately it has never run with the standard ecu, hunting idle (when it used to idle), flat spots, chokes with on/off throttle, pings up any hill <3000rpm, fuel smoke at cold start - ffs the list goes on (makes me wish it had points and carbies *sigh*, never thought i'd say that)

    it has been to a reputable mechanic several times, even had the jetronic swapped for motronic with reportedly worse behaviour and supposedly all sensors replaced...

    It has blown a head gasket, my thoughts are that a pretty fresh engine shouldn't do that, perhaps the poor timing has caused extra pressure on a reasonably high comp engine and done it.

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    I need a quickish solution to this as it is my daily. i am thinking of trashing the harness as much as i can and dropping in a haltech sprint, possibly with just cleaning and painting a bit of silver on the deck, adding a 2 ftlb's to the head bolts over stock with a new head gasket. Probably seems dodgy but i cant imagine how such a freshly decked head should need skimming again and i have had considerable success with such cheaty measures in the past (60,000km without an issue.)

    oh and apart from when it blew initially it hasn't overheated since. (EDIT: cause i fill it with water before every drive - lol)
    Last edited by spar; 24th March 2011 at 09:27 PM.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Go the Haltech. I wish I had one instead of my Wolf.

    I fully respect that its your daily but if you bodge it now you will pay for it later. Even if you have to take it to some one to sort the problem out and you hire a rent a bomb for a week. I've driven a properly sorted 205 with your setup and its worth the wait man.

    Awesome to see more 8V coming out....

    Nice,


    Chris

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Oh... are you running a adjustable cam wheel?


    Chris

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    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjB8V View Post
    Oh... are you running a adjustable cam wheel?


    Chris
    not that i am aware of - lol

    i went the route of sending it off to get work done cause i dont have a garage - our carport has bluemetal rocks as it's base ouch and not very stable for car stands... honestly i have no idea apart from what i said about the engine, i believe it was from a prior to a frogger who did a 16v upgrade.

    i will try and not bodge the job - before starting i will work out what wiring i need to do and set myself up as best i can.

    i can borrow my mum's car (going and getting it each day) for however long it takes, i just have issues with driving a mint 98 camry for any period of time... especially if you need to pass someone...
    Last edited by spar; 24th March 2011 at 09:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjB8V View Post
    Even if you have to take it to some one to sort the problem out
    been there - failed lol

    time to do it myself.

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    i just have issues with driving a mint 98 camry for any period of time... especially if you need to pass someone...
    Just bite your lip and bare with it mate.... hahahaha.

    As for the cam wheel try this

    The biggest problem with this conversion (higher compression head) is getting the time right/safe while using std management. I reckon if you can tear it down and get it back to a usable state again with a Haltech and cam gear you'll be sweet.

    As for your carport, get hold of some decent chunks of wood and clear the rock out of the way, then lay a tarp down, should take the stab out of the rock. I'm keen to see how you go with this.


    Chris

  7. #7
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    Firstly, and absolutely essentially, get the head checked before you proceed. If it is warped, you are wasting your time and money - get it ground. If not, just re-install it normally. The head bolts are designed to stretch, and should not be re-used. Giving them a bit of extra torque is a BAD IDEA.

    Who did the work on the car? I am looking for a local French-friendly mechanic, but it sounds like this may not be the one................

    Stick with the Jetronic. I understand the temptation, and you MAY fix all the problems while you are installing an aftermarket computer and loom, but you may well not. The Jetronic is well proven (millions of them), and this is not where your problem lies. I am going through a similar process - see recent threads about 205 idle, etc. It is frustrating, but almost all the problems are air leaks, not the computer, and not the sensors.

    I found airleaks at:
    The PCV hoses
    the dipstick
    the distributor vacuum advance
    the carbon canister
    the intake manifold gasket
    the injector O-rings

    Somebody else recently had success replacing the vacuum hose to the brake booster.

    ANY of these leaks will root up your idle. A can of Aerostart is the recommended diagnostic tool, but WD40 will do.

    I also had luck fiddling with the electrical connection to the SAD - instantaneous cold idle (although it hasn't lasted. I may have to replace the plug.)

    Once you have it running right you will wonder what all the fuss was about. You don't need an aftermarket computer - the car is essentially standard, and the slightly raised compression doesn't warrant re-inventing the wheel.

    If the pinging bothers you (they all do this) use better fuel, which you are probably already doing. Otherwise, old fashioned though they may be, distributors have a wonderful feature - you can grab them and turn them. Retard it a few degrees until the pinging stops. It will take the edge off the top end, but when did you last use it? Mine has no vacuum advance, so there is presumably no top end power, but who is to know? And it pings.

    Just take the time. Do it one thing and one day at a time. Rejoice in your small successes, and try not to let the many failures depress you. Since the head is off, you can check a lot of stuff which is normally inaccessible, and you can make sure when the inlet manifold goes back on that it is sealed properly, and so on.

    Tim

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    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Thx Tim,

    I did see the thread about the hunting idle, i had figured that mine has soooo many issues which i would have thought were beyond an air leak, i figure i am getting intermittent earth / connection issues across probably half the sensors to the ecu due to hardened wires which is causing it to be completely nutty.

    Still, I suppose it is easier to replace the existing wiring than wire in a haltech (and cheaper ).

    As to air leaks, yep, the dipstick has lost it's rubber bit so definite there, i will have to have a close look but the only leaks i am aware of are upstream of the airbox.

    As to the pinking, well crap if they all do it ! Doesnt seem to matter whether it's had 90 or 98 in it and from memory the distributor wont turn any further, it's against the stop...

    Shane

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    See the adjacent post "My 92 si and tuning", from Fish.

    There is hope!

    Tim

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Some questions first.

    How did you achieve 10.5:1 with a S1 engine?

    If it has a different cam and the head has been decked, how was the cam timing verified if it doesn't have an adjustable sprocket? I can see it being horribly wrong.

    Whilst I can see Tim's point, it will never make it's potential hp if you have to retard the ignition timing to overcome the sub 3000 pinging. It needs 31-32 deg. at full power, regardless of what's happening at lower revs. Retarding the dizzy a few degrees will reduce the full load advance 28-29 deg., killing the power. To fix the problem you really need some stiffer springs in the dizzy. Do some ringing around and find someone with a dizzy graphing machine, and ask for a quote.

    However, all that is out the window because you said it's been converted to Motronic? If so, I'd pull the chip out and try an Mi16 chip in the 205 case. It might be better suited to the engine mods. I've got heaps if you want to try one.

    If it were mine, I'd spend the $1000 on the Haltech.

    All useless ideas until you solve the mechanical problems however.

    I had a S2 205 here that I'd done a head/cam job on. It went well but was a bastard at idle. Kept stalling at the lights etc. It just needed a slightly richer idle mixture (screw under plastic cap in AFM) and it was sweet as.
    Last edited by PeterT; 25th March 2011 at 04:34 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Some questions first.

    How did you achieve 10.5:1 with a S1 engine?
    Unfortunately i have no idea, although it might be possible to find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    If it has a different cam and the head has been decked, how was the cam timing verified if it doesn't have an adjustable sprocket? I can see it being horribly wrong.
    The dizzy is retarded back hard back against the head... is that wrong enough ! lol

    So is the issue the cam is lumpy assymetrically and has basically moved the goal post for tdc, which i guess requires a slightly more elegant solution than slipping the belt one notch? Hence the adjustable cam wheel?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Whilst I can see Tim's point, it will never make it's potential hp if you have to retard the ignition timing to overcome the sub 3000 pinging. It needs 31-32 deg. at full power, regardless of what's happening at lower revs. Retarding the dizzy a few degrees will reduce the full load advance 28-29 deg., killing the power. To fix the problem you really need some stiffer springs in the dizzy. Do some ringing around and find someone with a dizzy graphing machine, and ask for a quote.
    I had thought when i've got the head off i should rotate the dizzy one spline retarded then to get some control back, but not then by the sounds of this.

    It's been a long time for me and cars but it *feels* like it only makes about 100hp or so (mostly - lol).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    However, all that is out the window because you said it's been converted to Motronic? If so, I'd pull the chip out and try an Mi16 chip in the 205 case. It might be better suited to the engine mods. I've got heaps if you want to try one.

    If it were mine, I'd spend the $1000 on the Haltech.
    Nearly, it was apparently tried with motronic (which means to me it must have a flywheel sensor?) with worse results so now it has jettronic back again.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    All useless ideas until you solve the mechanical problems however.

    I had a S2 205 here that I'd done a head/cam job on. It went well but was a bastard at idle. Kept stalling at the lights etc. It just needed a slightly richer idle mixture (screw under plastic cap in AFM) and it was sweet as.
    Can get it to idle at ~1800 rpm, anything less and pfft - but i've given up and just use my left foot for braking lol.

    It's a moving target - set it at 1800 and few weeks later and it will either run at ~2200 rpm or like now 800 then 0.

    Thanks Peter, Tim and Chris - the 205 is a bit more modern than i'm used to and with early electronics comes GREMLINS, or at least thats how it feels to me ! lol, i shoulda bought a 404 !

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    i shoulda bought a 404 !


    .......or a turbo 16v :}
    jr20516v

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    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post

    The dizzy is retarded back hard back against the head... is that wrong enough ! lol

    So is the issue the cam is lumpy assymetrically and has basically moved the goal post for tdc, which i guess requires a slightly more elegant solution than slipping the belt one notch? Hence the adjustable cam wheel?

    I had thought when i've got the head off i should rotate the dizzy one spline retarded then to get some control back, but not then by the sounds of this.
    There's definitely something amiss if the dizzy is hard against the adjustment slots. What splines are you talking about? There's really no adjustment within the dizzy, other than rotating the body to adjust timing.

    You need to set the cam lift @ TDC first, then worry about the dizzy second. You may have an issue with rotor phasing.

    Idling @ 1800? That's crap. It must be sucking a serious amount of air. Are you sure the SAD hoses aren't broken/cracked?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr20516v View Post
    i shoulda bought a 404 !


    .......or a turbo 16v :}
    ha ha - yeah damn that isus fellow, i was getting there, if you'd left some kind of interior in it would have helped convincing the ministry of finance !

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    There's definitely something amiss if the dizzy is hard against the adjustment slots. What splines are you talking about? There's really no adjustment within the dizzy, other than rotating the body to adjust timing.

    You need to set the cam lift @ TDC first, then worry about the dizzy second. You may have an issue with rotor phasing.
    yeah rotating the body was what i was on about.

    usually you would set the cam timing off the markings (and without checking i am sure that is what it is at the moment), with this cam does that need to be altered by a few degrees, hence the adjustable cam wheel ? Would you usually get instructions for how to set cam timing from standard when you buy a cam?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Idling @ 1800? That's crap. It must be sucking a serious amount of air. Are you sure the SAD hoses aren't broken/cracked?
    I will be so peed off if it is something as simple as that, considering the amount of time it has spent getting attention. I'll check it out this weekend, Tim mentioned using aerostart to find leaks, does it spray out as a mist so you can see it get sucked in ?

    Thx Shane

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Spa,
    With a vacuum test gauge connected to the inlet manifold and using a spec sheet it may give an indication of incorrect valve timing?

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    usually you would set the cam timing off the markings (and without checking i am sure that is what it is at the moment), with this cam does that need to be altered by a few degrees, hence the adjustable cam wheel ? Would you usually get instructions for how to set cam timing from standard when you buy a cam?
    As soon as you move away from a standard cam, or skim the head significantly, all that goes out the window. There is no guarantee that the cam grinder can match the lobe centre line to the key, and even then, you wouldn't want the original centre line anyway. Your new cam would have come with a recommend lobe centre line, and/or a lift @ TDC figure (which corresponds to that LCL figure).

    There is no adjustment on a 205 for cam timing. If you currently don't have an adjustable wheel it's more than likely the cam is incorrectly timed. There are other methods, such as offset keys, but it takes a skilled machinist to make one for a 205.

    If your engine tuner/mechanic doesn't have a dial indicator to check the cam timing you've got the wrong person.

    A compression test will also give you some clues.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    yep !! they seem to have alot of input into cars these days
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    yeah rotating the body was what i was on about.

    usually you would set the cam timing off the markings (and without checking i am sure that is what it is at the moment), with this cam does that need to be altered by a few degrees, hence the adjustable cam wheel ? Would you usually get instructions for how to set cam timing from standard when you buy a cam?



    I will be so peed off if it is something as simple as that, considering the amount of time it has spent getting attention. I'll check it out this weekend, Tim mentioned using aerostart to find leaks, does it spray out as a mist so you can see it get sucked in ?

    Thx Shane
    Revs will increase if the Aerostart gets sucked in.
    Graham

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Spar,
    If your distributor adjustment is at its limit to me this suggests an error in cam timing, belt out one tooth? Or if the amount removed from head/block is extreme this will render the standard cam timing u.s.
    The belt tensioner may be close to its limit also? Something to keep closely observed.
    The above is assuming the distributor is driven from the end of the cam?

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    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Spar,
    If your distributor adjustment is at its limit to me this suggests an error in cam timing, belt out one tooth? Or if the amount removed from head/block is extreme this will render the standard cam timing u.s.
    The belt tensioner may be close to its limit also? Something to keep closely observed.
    The above is assuming the distributor is driven from the end of the cam?
    It took me a minute for the penny to drop after PeterT said decking would change the timing, of course the loss of distance between cam and crank will be taken up by the tensioner just on one side, probably moving a couple of degrees i would guess. Add to it a cam and who knows how far out it is.

    This car is coming off road for some lovin, rewiring and cam timing.

    Especially after this morning when the bonnet catch popped, the wire holding hook broke and the bonnet came up to say hello at 100kmh. lol. So let me add some bonnet pins and a bit o bonnet straightening to the job list !

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    Fellow Frogger! deltone's Avatar
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    yep, after you have verified you cam and timing setup, i would definiely put a haltec in there!! You will unleash any available hp and torque as well as a smooth linear power curve with lots more response. It really is the way to go.


    oh and be a good boy like me and replace every single hose in the car, both coolant and air hoses, i was surprised to see everyhose that looked ok from the outside, being cracked and seeping, including air hoses!! after that and the ECU with the fresh engine for two years it was like a new car.... until i decided to upgrade the engine.
    Last edited by deltone; 28th March 2011 at 06:45 PM.
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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltone View Post
    yep, after you have verified you cam and timing setup, i would definiely put a haltec in there!! You will unleash any available hp and torque as well as a smooth linear power curve with lots more response. It really is the way to go.


    oh and be a good boy like me and replace every single hose in the car, both coolant and air hoses, i was surprised to see everyhose that looked ok from the outside, being cracked and seeping, including air hoses!! after that and the ECU with the fresh engine for two years it was like a new car.... until i decided to upgrade the engine.
    It recently had a refurb so hoses appear to be replaced, but i will definitely be checking them.

    I am going to rewire with standard ecu firstly (which is i guess what you mean by verifying it's all going to work) as there is naughty trickery going on in the harness.

    i figure if i tried to put a haltech on (even if i can get base 205 map off someone) it's just complicating my problem at this point.

    So the question is how to work out the timing difference to dial into the adjustable cam wheel, 2 parts to that i supose:

    - the head skimming : someone should be able to take an educated guess as to how much depth was removed to take it from 8.6? to ~10.5 c ratio. With that i can measure the circumference of the cam wheel and work out how far it would have turned. EDIT: i just realised i can work that out - d'oh - the volume change of the cylinder. But it's irrelevant anyway in this case cause of the cam change.

    - the cam: PeterT mentioned finding someone with a dial indicator, but AFAIK you would still need to know the new centre line or TDC lift. Would mine likely have anything stamped on it to say what its setting should be ? EDIT: here we go http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/autotips/camdegree.html cam dialing, i need to find some more explanation of step 4.
    Last edited by spar; 28th March 2011 at 10:34 PM.

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Apparently that cam dialing method doesn't take into account asymmetric cam profiles, you do need to know lift at tdc for it to be accurate.

    i guess you could profile the cam, take lift readings every ~5 degrees and calculate weighted intake and exhaust centerlines.
    Last edited by spar; 29th March 2011 at 12:32 AM.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Asymmetrical or not, you could either use the Lift @ TDC method or the Lobe Centre Line method (LCL), on the inlet. Your LCL will be somewhere between 112 deg. (standard) to 106 (Group A spec., or fairly hot). I'd set it up around 109-110 and see what it's like. Then move it a degree (crankshaft) either way for comparison.

    The LCL method is a more difficult as you have to verify the centre line by taking a lift measurement either side of the nose. You can't just "guess" the maximum opening point by measuring it with a dial indicator.

    The lift @ TDC could vary anywhere from 0.050" (standard) to 0.150" (hot). So if you don't know the specs you're shooting in the dark. The LCL method, whilst more difficult, will give you a more accurate result if you don't know the specs. Are there any marks or stampings on either end of the cam?

    Do you still have a timing marker on the flywheel? There's a pic of one on my website.

    '92 205 Mi16
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